Originally Posted by Neil from Frameforum

Thank you for your honesty Todd; a rare commodity in this age of the internet-trained expert in practical framebuilding matters.

Your post pretty much encapsulates what I've been saying - and getting slammed for - over the past few years.
When Frameforum was set up 6 years ago, it was intended to be a place to discuss framebuilding, not serve as some sort of DIY, build-your-own correspondence course in how to stick some tubes together.

But that's the way it has turned out, thanks to the current 'wanna be a framebuilder for a day' craze.

Ask any trained professional framebuilder (past or present) if the current attitude of 'build first, learn after' is advancing the cause of framebuilding and the answer will surely be 'no'.
You may get the odd self-taught machinist with a website and a Paterek Manual who'll tell you 'sure, that's how I learned', but that's hardly a recommendation.
Basing a business model with the emphasis on viral marketing savvy over genuine craftsmanship does nothing for the framebuilding scene in the long run; it just breeds complacency towards learning genuine framebuilding skills and dilutes the talent pool to the point where there is little point in choosing a handmade bike over a factory-built offering.

Thankfully, there are still a few out there who understand what framebuilding is all about and will battle on in the face of the way things have become.

In the long run, it may be of benefit to them; in a few years time there's sure to be plenty of cheap tooling, tubes and fittings to be picked up from those who thought it was all about buying the fixture then loading Flikr into their browser.

So with that in mind, it's probably the time to call a halt to the endless regurgitating of questions with no real answers (at least, not the right ones) and close the forum to new topics and replies. The place will serve as an archive until the time comes when the donations in the Frameforum kitty can't meet the hosting and server bills.

After that, who knows?

There are plenty of other forums and websites out there where the same old questions will be asked; where the same tired answers will be cut and pasted by the dreamers, and where you'll be persuaded - ever so subtly - to buy this or that gadget, or this or that set of lugs, or dropouts, or filler.
Or, heaven forbid, be persuaded to part with a couple of thousand dollars for the 'privilege' of standing and watching a frame being built, with maybe (if you're lucky), the odd bit of brazing thrown in.

Good Luck to one and all, especially those who made possible the forum's survival over the years.