Originally Posted by
Velocirapture
1) Incorrect.
2) Under the assumption of your initially proposed scenario, of a fast paced leadout train, with a few hard kicks before the big sprint, zone 2/3 is not relevant. yes, there will be more recovery of all systems at a lower pace. I'm sure you put out big power. You are
assume that it is from your fully recharged ATP-PC system. It is not.
3) Agreed that these systems can be trained, this is why we train
. Your '10s power' may last 12s, or 8s, but its not going to extend to 20s, even if you are jmikami
all that aside, the science behind energy systems doesn't solve your question. How about using your road bike on the track, to eliminate possible power-meter differneces?
You graph is based on an untrained athlete Velocirapture. Just because someone made a pretty chart with the basics, doesn't mean that you can't train beyond that and those are the numbers. I can also tell you for a fact that the lactate system can be drawn out longer than a minute or two as well.
Please explain what is wrong with number 1 above? Nothing I said there is in debate in anything I have ever read. You have ATP, that ATP gets recharged by the Phosphate system for a period of time before switching to the lactate. The phosphate recharge of the ATP is what gives you a sprint beyond a few seconds, your lactate system is not being used much if any during this phosphate rerecharge. This really has nothing to do with ATP stores or ATP, expect that ATP is the final result, this has to do with how you create the ATP. Phosphate = huge and fast, lactate = complex and messy and either kinda fast or just a little fast depending on how you use it, then you fall onto aerobic and will not be going fast at all - but all create ATP used for any speed, it is just a matter of how fast the system can deliver ATP that determines the speed you can go out side of muscular endurance which is also a factor. Can we agree on this basic point of energy?
On point 2, a well trained athlete will barely touch their phosphate stores, even during a leadout. this is why you see some sprinters who can go from 300 and 400 meters out from the line after a leadout. No sprinter alive can survive a sprint without a fully charge phosphate system there is just no comparison between the lactate and phosphate system when it comes to power/speed. I, as well as other sprinters can maintain a speed near our aerobic max, then lean on our lactate system during the leadout, and then finally pull from our phosphate system during the final kick. Sure we might have used up 5% of the phosphate system during the leadout or holding wheels, but we are going to use the rest of that 95% during the final sprint.
You can not sprint against a sprinter on lactate alone, it is not possible against another sprinter type. My sprinting power numbers of which I have many do not change much between fully rested and 2 hours later with constant aerobic pacing, including leadouts. A really fast leadout or a crit is likely to tax my muscular endurance and my tap my phosphate more than 5%, and in that case yes I will be sprinting on fumes, aka fast glycolysis ... and I will not reach top power. But I can see that on a chart later as it is more than obvious.
On point 3, please explain why you think the phosphate system can't be trained to 25 seconds? I personally have done it, there is no way my lactate system is going to give me over 1,000 watts ... it is not that strong, I have seen power profiles of others that have done it. There is no way that the top 200m runner/sprinters in the world who have the same 100 and 200m speed have figured out how to make their lactate systems give them the same speed as their phosphate systems. I am not saying that I am only using phosphate for the 25 second of my sprint, and here is an opinion, I think what I and other long sprinters are doing is figuring out how to train our lactate systems to buffer our phosphate systems to extend it. All I know is that fresh or not I have the same 20 sec +/- second kick as I do when fatigued to a point. And I have done it 100s of times, not just a few. Only sprinting for 10 seconds does not improve my speed, it just shortens it as I have another 10 seconds of "sprint" left.
The issue with energy systems is they are very easy to identify, especially the phosphate system. Phosphate is such a huge kick over even the fast glycolysis (lactate) system that it is not even close. But like I said here is where I lose my science and have to go with gut to say I think I am leaning on my glycolysis to extend my phosphate, or maybe it is just my phosphate extended to 25 seconds, I don't know. Regardless, I an many others can "sprint" for between 10 and 25 seconds, I am not sure the exact extent of the cap on time and that is just training. There is a zero percent chance I am using my glycolysis system during a top level sprint at any point in any race, it will not work ... unless I am not sprinting and just going fast.
Understanding these systems in both training and racing is the difference between winning and losing. I have won many races by knowing that my competition can't match my sprint duration and have taken them long. This would not work if I took them long on lactate, they would pass me every time. I have also won many races knowing that my system was not well trained and ensuring the sprint started late with me near the lead not giving the long sprinters a chance to drain me.
I have done many many power and sprint tests, fresh and tired, even taken my road bike to the velodrome and tried sprinting when fresh ... it is the velodrome that does it to me. Well that and seated/higher RPM power. I need to work on this if I want to better transfer my road power to the track, and plan to.
I enjoy these side track discussions as much as the real talk as they help to reinforce topics. I am actually curious if you can punch holes in my logic so that I can refine and use it for better training in the future. But I have lots of data to back up my logic, so please dig away.