In the interest of full disclosure, and to keep my promise of responding to items from this forum, I share the following e-mail thread (or what I did on saturday afternoon):
From: Tim Cupery
To:
info@nycbikes.com
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 11:32 AM
Subject: would appreciate a partial refund on this wheel
This is for eBay item 7219388141 - a 27" flip-flop wheel with Sun rim. The wheel was packed well and shipped in good time (thanks for both), but I had to do a significant amount of work to bring it up to speed. Here's the rundown:
shipped and packed well
true and round and evenly dished
but spokes have widely uneven tension, and and were also loosely-tensioned
spokes weren't prepped with anything, apparently - stuck, pinged and got spoke wind-up
bearings not packed with much grease, and one bearing cone has depressions from the bearings in it
I brought the wheel up to tension, added some lubricant to the threads on spoke nipples (and now tension is high enough so this won't cause danger of spokes loosening) and now it should be very durable, with 36 spokes and double-wall eyeletted rim, solid flange and all. Cleaned and packed the hub with lots of new good grease, and it should turn well enough. The hub isn't necessarily your problem or fault, perhaps - it's probably the way that it came from Suzue. Although I'd expect some quality control checks on the hub before building the wheel. The wheel build itself is pretty poor though, and whether NYC Bikes bought the wheel pre-built from someone else, or built it yourselves, I'd expect the tension to be topped off correctly by the time I receive it.
The amount of work I had to do getting this wheel up to speed is what I'd expect to do with a wheel I bought for $20 on eBay, not a new wheel from a shop with a large online presence. I just didn't think too much of putting work into the wheel at first because I'd done this a few times for eBay wheels, and they turn out fine. But I shouldn't have had to put this kind of work in. Most people, when they buy new wheels online, receive the wheels that are properly tensioned and ready to go.
The work I put into the wheel would cost at least $30 if I'd brought it to a bike shop - probably more money than that. As such, I think it would be fair if you refunded $20-25 of my purchase. That would significantly improve your rep in my book, and would be fair to boot. What do you think?
My first fixed-gear conversion
will@nycbikes.com wrote:
The fine tuning work you did on the wheel was admirable, however I do feel the wheel you purchased was worth the cost, and I don't think you will find it's equivalent for even $30 more.
Best Regards
will
From: Tim Cupery
To:
will@nycbikes.com
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: would appreciate a partial refund on this wheel
Thanks for replying quickly. I'd say the work was necessary, not just admirable.
The purchased wheel may be worth the cost, and now that I've worked them over I do expect them to last for a long time... but people do buy wheels with the expectations that they're properly built, eh?
The word is that all wheels that people get from IRO, Ben's Bikes, Harris, etc., come well-tensioned and ready go to, even if they're the cheap wheels. Should I not expect this from a major shop?
will@nycbikes.com wrote:
Tim-
We offer this wheel as a low cost option for those like yourself looking for the least expensive wheel to build their first conversion. Most do find it nicer to upgrade for the minor cost to a sealed bearing hub like the formula we use, and used by the other companies you mention. You also note, quite correctly, that the labor you did would have cost you $30, if you have a $20 rim, a $25 hub, and a good $20 in spokes, and you paid $66, how much more of a deal do you expect?
The need to true a wheel after shipping is not a shocker to me, no one gets a new wheel from us without us putting it into the stand after it has been shipped, that is just common common shop sense, like lubing the pivot points and adjusting the gears on a new bike. Since we can't come with the wheels to true them once they're out of the box, that is something you take upon yourself when ordering mail order. We also can't true them after two weeks of riding which happens for all who buy from our store, and you should do yourself.
Regards
will
From: Tim Cupery
To:
will@nycbikes.com
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: wheelbuild quality
Hey Will, thanks again for responding. I agree that the wheel ain't a bad deal. And I don't object to a wheel needing some truing after shipment; that's standard. Also, while I realize that the hub is cheap, I might expect it to come properly packed with grease. But that's more Suzue's fault than the fault of your shop. This wheel is going on a fixed-gear bike that I'm going to keep at my parents' house - conversion of an old 10-speed with horizontal dropouts and no built-in derailler hanger. It won't be ridden in inclement weather, and doesn't need sealed bearings.
My main objection was that the wheel was improperly tensioned (tension was too low, and spokes had widely varying tension, even though the wheel as a whole was pretty close to true). This isn't the result of shipment; it's the result of the initial build, in which the wheel wasn't tensioned correctly. Meaning that if I'd walked into your shop and bought the wheel, it also wouldn't have been tensioned very well.
If the build quality is also going to be low, perhaps it's worth stating in the auction, eh? People like me, with wheelbuilding skill and experience, would still bid, just with the knowledge that we'll have to spend some time on the wheel beyond just cursory truing.
Tim-
I am sorry that the folks at Bike Forums manged to turn a positive experience into a bad one for you. I have often thought about removing all bargain products from my line. People have such a love hate experience. It's interesting to note that a recent study shows people who get a bargain feel worse and have more regret than those who over pay. The fear of having been duped as opposed to getting a deal overides reason. It means that there is less margin (of course) in selling less expensive parts, and a lot more hassle. I sell affordable gear because it gets more folks on bikes. I would hope that someone who knows bikes like you would be able to quickly figure out that you got a good deal on what you paid for, and what you expected, that no one matches that deal or sells a better wheel for less, and that we offer and match or beat our competitors prices on the better wheels.
If you go through our ebay responses you will find more people who remark on the tight and true wheels they have received from us, than unique user comments for our competitors here on this forum. That fact still does not take away from the truth - You received true wheels, but all should know shipping wheels interferes with their integrity, and not truing and tensioning them after you receive them is like not changing the oil on your car, you can go for ages without it biting you in the ass, but it's always better that you do it. It's part of the DIY ethos anyway - if you are the best man to build your own bike, then you should be the best man to tune things to the way you like them.
Happy riding,
will