KingShakes

So my ENVE's didn't come in on time for target event, so here I am choosing between my current HED wheels.

Rolling 54 mile road race with 12 separate 200-300 foot climbs at 8% grade. Go aero or go weight? HED Jet 6+ or Hed Ardennes+ (250 grams lighter) I've always gone aero before, but I think this race is won on the ramps and leaning toward the Ardennes this time.

FFJ

I'd be going for the aero wheels. If you're going up the hill 12 times, presumably you're descending it 12 times as well. The aero wheels are going to help you hit higher speeds on the descent, which might be the difference between regrouping if you get dropped on the climb or staying away if you are the one doing the dropping.

If you're super worried about the weight difference, consider riding aero up front (where it will make more of a difference) and light in the back.

shovelhd

If it's going to be very windy, Ardennes. If not, Jets.

Ygduf

I disagree that this debate is in anyway great.

shovelhd

Get off my lawn.

carpediemracing 

If it's a 250g difference do the Jets, or at least a Jet rear if its super windy.

FFJ

Wouldn't the wind increase the advantage of the Jets over the Ardennes? Handling may be more challenging, but doesn't the aero effect of deep dish wheels generally increase as wind speed increases?

KingShakes

Cool, I'll revert to the Jets and prime myself for the chase upon cresting each hill! Or you know, I'll just use the aero to stay away.....

These sorts of decisions make the scale of the universe look silly.

carpediemracing 

Perhaps technically. I do prefer aero wheels in all but the most wind-swept situations because in a cross-tailwind big aero wheels are sooooo fast. Problem is that as soon as I'm hitting 45-50 mph on straight descents I'll reach for a short height front wheel. Also any strong gusts at higher speeds (45-50+ mph) are super scary with a tall front wheel.

A windy (with lots of wind, not with lots of turns) steep descent is scary on my Jet 6 front wheel (Jet 6/9 set up) over 45 mph. Even 40 mph and I can't hold a line tighter than about 2 feet. With Bastognes (aka Ardennes) my line at the same speed is defined in inches - I can confidently descend down a pothole-filled descent and ride ridges of pavement while avoiding lengthwise cracks.

I'd use a tall rear wheel any time though. How I trained for a year or two:

rubiksoval

Jumping in as I'm seriously considering the move back to tubulars for race wheels.

I've now had four flats this year in some of my more important races; one at Sunny King (took a free lap), once in a road race while in the break (took a new wheel before the field caught up, eventually the break was caught), in the last lap of the Hyde Park Blast while sitting top ten (big money regional crit), and early on in Elite Crit Nats (took a free lap). All seemed to be pinch flats, the first three flats were on latex tubes (!) and had tire pressure around 98-100 and the last one was at 90-92 psi (it was raining hard). 22mm rim, 23 mm Contis (about 25mm on the rim).

It's infuriating. I've never flatted to this extent (previously averaged about 1 flat every two years in races) and it's driving me insane. I raced tubulars for a few years when I was younger and never flatted, so am looking at some alloy tubular rims to build up specifically to afford me some flat protection.

I want alloy to avoid the brake pad swap (and I've cracked a couple of carbon rims on manholes in crits in the past) but there doesn't seem to be too many options available. Any one racing on alloy tubulars?

Initially was all gung ho about the Kinlin TB20 at 23mm wide but am reading varying reports on road usability as it may have been designed more for cyclocross with a narrower inner channel? I don't know.

Kinlin TB20 (BHS TB415) Tubular Rim - 23mm Wide - 415g

Bit of a quandary.

jsk

If pinch flats are the issue tubeless is another option to consider.

tetonrider

damn. let's hope it's just a run of bad luck.

tubulars rule for those situations. yeah, more of a PITA to install, of course, but if you're racing in big groups like elite nats with 100+ riders you are going to hit square edges, period. not as big a factor if one is racing 30 guys or training alone, of course.

tubeless is an option, but unless one lives where goatherds are an issue or running super low pressure (MTB), it's inferior to tubulars other than installation.

if you do flat on the road (that won't seal), it's a PITA. limited tire offerings. tubeless does not offer lower rolling resistance than latex at higher pressures, IF a tire does fail, it can be catastrophic (eg mountain descent) where tubulars have a margin of safety, etc.

tetonrider

most likely aero. what's the power;weight you'll be putting out on the climbs? is the finish on the climb?

a small weight diff like 250g is easily trumped by the aero benefit...but if there is any question about you handling our bike, then i'd reconsider.

globecanvas

Tubeless is preferred in small North African villages, for example.

revchuck 

Good one. I can't believe I missed that, must've been caffeine deficiency.

topflightpro

rubiksoval, if it makes you feel any better, I flatted two tubulars at the same race course last year. One was a complete blow out. Tire was destroyed. The other was a slow leak. Not sure how it happened, but I felt it making a tight turn when the rear gave out a little and the guy behind me said, "Dude, I think your rear wheel is flat." I was able to use some Stans to seal up the second one, but my race that day was done - I had forgotten to bring pit wheels.

tetonrider

rubiksoval

Good point. I had considered tubeless earlier this year for training but two different guys had punctures that were too big to seal and the ensuing roadside mess trying to get a tube in there nixed that idea.

But for racing, a puncture would be a puncture regardless of tire and changing it wouldn't be an issue. And if it'd eliminate the pinch flats...hmm.

rubiksoval

Ugh, that sucks. Maybe it's just a run of crappy luck! Here's to no flats the rest of the season!

Poonjabby

Yesterdays TdF the tubular's were melting the glue.




Poon

carpediemracing 

How big are you?

It sounds like you're hard on your wheels.

Also a cross tire is usually wider so a cross specific rim would have a wider, flatter tire bed area. A narrower tire bed would be more suited to a smaller/road tire.

Tubulars would definitely reduce pinch flat incidents. I know that it's possible to pinch flat tubulars - a friend of mine double pinch flatted tubulars on a massive pothole at high speed. He also bent both TriSpoke wheels that were on his bike. So it can happen but it's unusual. (Incidentally my friend gave me his wheels, I channel-locked the bends out, and I still have the wheels about 20 years later.)

If you're hard on your wheels it might be that larger tubulars with more air volume would benefit you. I'm not a wide tire subscriber but it seems everyone is using 25-28mm tubulars on the road.

Finally although it's not stylish I tend to run higher pressures in my tires. 120 psi for 23mm tubulars. 100-105 psi for 23c clinchers. Higher pressures will help deter pinch flats.

topflightpro

After crashing a few weeks ago, during which I rolled a tubular - the crash caused the tubular to roll, not the other way around - I got nervous about my glue jobs and went through all my wheels this weekend. I decided one tire needed to be reglued. So, I pulled it off on Saturday, and I glued it up on Saturday and Sunday.

As I was cleaning the rim off - I tend to get glue on the rim - I noticed what appeared to be either an extremely deep scratch or a crack in the rim. It's kind of hard to tell how bad it is. When I push on the rim, it moves as one piece, so it's definitely not separated, but there also is a distinct lip to the scratch/crack. More concerning is the little bulge at the bottom of it, which isn't a crack, as it may appear in the picture, but just a bulge. I'm wondering if perhaps there is some deformation in the rim due to the crack.



Anyway, the person I most trust to evaluate carbon parts and wheels said he would not ride it.

Now I am debating whether to buy a new-to-me set of 404s or just stick with my old Reynolds DV46s. The Reynolds are light and seem stiff enough to me, but I don't think they are that aero. From everything I've read, they pretty much determined the old V-shape rims are not that effective.

Thoughts?

carpediemracing 

The DV46s aren't that aero but they are nice wheels. I used them and a pair of matching clinchers 2005 (tubulars) or 2008 (clinchers) until 2009. What's a bit weird is that at one race in 2010 or 2011 I flatted a Stinger 6 front. I went into the pits and grabbed a team wheel, DV46s that I lent a teammate for a number of years. I swear it felt like a brake was dragging. Different tire so it wasn't just the rim, but still, it seemed off.

For photo files I think you just click on the paperclip icon above, choose file, upload?

Testing with some picture that isn't too random I hope. *edit that's how it works. Just close dialogue window after uploading photo.

topflightpro

I figured it out. Thanks.

rubiksoval

I'm about 160-163 lbs.

I wouldn't normally consider myself hard on wheels, but yeah, maybe so. I wouldn't think 100 psi would be too much for wider rims/tires from all the stuff I've read, but at this point might just bump up to 105 if I don't get new wheels. I corner very aggressively, though, and really appreciate the idea for lower pressure in that regards.

And that's the biggest draw I'm seeing from tubular/tubeless. Eliminate the pinch flats (except for extreme contact) while using 95-100 psi for aggressive cornering (especially in the wet).