The Great Wheel Debate
06-25-15, 02:55 PM
#51
VeloSIRraptor
Zinn has been slipping, if not in fact just wrong for a couple years now.
For all the things he is reliable about, I certainly wouldn't take his word on that topic. There are some people doing good, scientifically verifiable work on the topic, look them up on Slowtwitch or a few other spots.
There are many more variables to the test than you might think -
example, amazing tubulars installed with tape are REAL bad, but with the right gluing protocol, amazing differences abound, this applies at all levels for comparing tubular/clinchers - eg, oranges and tangerines.
For all the things he is reliable about, I certainly wouldn't take his word on that topic. There are some people doing good, scientifically verifiable work on the topic, look them up on Slowtwitch or a few other spots.
There are many more variables to the test than you might think -
example, amazing tubulars installed with tape are REAL bad, but with the right gluing protocol, amazing differences abound, this applies at all levels for comparing tubular/clinchers - eg, oranges and tangerines.
06-25-15, 03:15 PM
#52
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06-25-15, 03:27 PM
#53
Nonsense
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So, I cracked my front 46mm carbon rim in a crash about a month ago and since then have been using a lower profile alloy rim. I have to be honest, I really don't feel much of any difference between the carbon and al wheels at any speed below like 40mph, and how often do you hit 40 on anything that isn't some sort of descent?
06-25-15, 08:22 PM
#54
Ninny
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I usually race on 60mm wheels and where I notice the most difference is on descents and cross-tailwinds. IMO it's a big help to be picking up places while essentially resting.
06-25-15, 08:40 PM
#55
Senior Member
Life is too short to be riding on clinchers. Seriously, tubulars are superior in every respect - particularly rotating weight. If your problem is flats, then inject 20cc (20g) of Stan's in your rear tire as a prophyactic measure. I commute on tubulars every day, and without flatting I now wear the tires down to the point where I'm looking forward to hitting something big that will allow me to get new tires.
06-25-15, 09:54 PM
#57
Senior Member
So, I cracked my front 46mm carbon rim in a crash about a month ago and since then have been using a lower profile alloy rim. I have to be honest, I really don't feel much of any difference between the carbon and al wheels at any speed below like 40mph, and how often do you hit 40 on anything that isn't some sort of descent?
Well I don't either, not usually.
46mm regular narrow rims aren't that much faster than a regular non-aero rim, aerodynamically speaking. The ones I used (Reynolds DV46) were light and stiff and were great accelerating up the hill at Bethel, but at speed they didn't seem very fast. That's why I went with the 60mm HEDs and now the 75/90mm HEDs. I'd hazard a guess that the spokes are more significant than the rim with the DV46, meaning spoke count and shape made about as much difference as the rim itself, based on my aero vs round spokes (same DV46 rim) and DV46 tubular vs less aero tubular (28H box, round spokes) vs more aero tubular (TriSpoke).
Now that I have the DV46s back in my hands I suppose I could do some A-B-C-A-B-C tests or something using DV46/HED60/HED75 (and add TriSpoke for good measure), but that would require a lot of effort.
If you can I'd rebuild that front wheel with a super shallow (32mm?) or super deep rim (66? or more), and get another front wheel with the opposite type of rim. Tall for flatter things for speed with no worries about control at 45+ mph, shallow for hilly things for weight and control-on-descents-over-45-mph. Heck I'll sell you my DV46s for a song, but you'd want get new aero spokes for the front wheel (I rebuilt it using round spokes back in 2006 when I broke a spoke up front).
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"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
06-25-15, 09:59 PM
#58
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I appreciate the offer, but I've melted the brake track on a front dv46 which caused the carbon bead to bow outward, and I'm not sure I trust that gen of rim under heavy braking.
I'm considering options for a new front rim including stock rebuild, or something taller, but in the meantime I haven't noticed the al rim slowing me down much if at all.
I'm considering options for a new front rim including stock rebuild, or something taller, but in the meantime I haven't noticed the al rim slowing me down much if at all.
06-25-15, 10:03 PM
#59
Senior Member
I try to leverage my big wheels to move up when the speeds are moderately high but there's a cross/tailwind. For example at Bethel in 2010 I moved up pretty aggressively just before the sprint, doing about 35 mph without going deep in the red. Yeah, slight downhill, cross-tailwind, but still, I was doing it and not many others were (no one was). When I show up at a race the first thing I hope for is a cross-tailwind sprint because then I can really leverage my 75/90 wheels. If not then I hope for a headwind sprint (because headwinds tend to blunt the super strong sprinters). Then I hope I'll be in the field going into the sprint.
More recently I used the crosswinds at Keith Berger in the P123 race to move up pretty aggressively when I had to (on my 75/90 wheels). I didn't have the legs to follow through, but I was maybe 20 guys back going into the last lap, and hoping to start to move up, with some protection, on the backstretch. My legs betrayed me but I moved up hard at 2 to go, using whatever tricks I could use to move up without using up my legs too much. I can't remember but I'm pretty sure I was at the back at 3 or 4 to go.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
06-25-15, 10:28 PM
#61
commu*ist spy
I have a pair of chinese tubulars (vittoria corsa cx latex) and ksyrium elites. Even if there was a difference in the feel, I wouldn't really care, so long as the rolling resistance is similar, and the weight difference is small, which they are. the only upside for the tubular is that I can inflate it up to a ridiculously high psi, which helps with nothing. If I were to do it over, I would opt for carbon clinchers.
however, I do have concerns about the reliability of the clinchers. carbon fiber inherently has lower impact resistance, and the walls have been known to buckle. are the wall buckling manufacturing defects, or design defects? don't all of them have high temp resin on the brake tracks?
I want to get carbon clinchers, but the fact that carbon has poor heat dissipation worries me a little. I don't want resins melting on me on a steep, technical descent.
however, I do have concerns about the reliability of the clinchers. carbon fiber inherently has lower impact resistance, and the walls have been known to buckle. are the wall buckling manufacturing defects, or design defects? don't all of them have high temp resin on the brake tracks?
I want to get carbon clinchers, but the fact that carbon has poor heat dissipation worries me a little. I don't want resins melting on me on a steep, technical descent.
06-25-15, 10:38 PM
#62
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My understanding is that's a thing of the past. I think all the manufacturers have their resins up to snuff at this point. The DV46s I did that to were from like 2008.
06-26-15, 03:40 AM
#63
out walking the earth
Thread Starter
I recall a recent conversation with the zipp rep (who is a friend) about samples of some pretty bad stuff he saw
06-26-15, 04:35 AM
#65
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I recently bought a set of older (2002?) Zipp 303 tubulars in good shape. I didn't really need them but for $300 I couldn't resist. They're not tall - looks like 38mm - so I doubt they do much for my steady-state speed, but they're like 800 grams lighter than the wheels they replaced. The resin might not be up to snuff for long, technical descents, but where I live the longest descents are coming down the far side of a bridge over the Intercoastal Canal, so they'll do fine.
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Chuck
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06-26-15, 05:00 AM
#66
out walking the earth
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06-26-15, 05:53 AM
#67
Senior Member
Mine are 2005. Heh. But tubulars. I used them in SoCal one year, didn't bring them back only because at 50 mph they were absolutely petrifying when 18 wheelers passed me at whatever 60 mph or something, on a wide-ish 2 lane road (descent from Harrahs, for those that know the Palomar Mountain area). However, on the switchback-laden Palomar descent (about 15? min of descending for the switchback part, 35 min total, and I was 190 lbs or more), it was fine, and it was fine coming down Double Peak and some other steep stuff.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
06-26-15, 05:59 AM
#68
Senior Member
I think LBSs with long memories remember the earlier stuff in terms of quality, and also they remember the rims that come in broken but not under warranty. I've done some crazy stuff with my current rims and they've withstood it pretty well.
Also my understanding is that Zipp is aggressive about placing product, you have to order a lot of stuff to get into the better price tiers. In 2010 when HED was doing the Stingers you had to do 10 carbon wheels (5 pairs, but a pair of aluminum wheels counted as one carbon wheel) to get the best price. That's the year I bought 4 carbon and 1 pair of aluminum HEDs. I'm sure that really, really helps the shop meet the 10 wheel minimum as I bought 5 wheels worth of business. A shop could order a number of aluminum rimmed wheels and get the discount at a reasonable $ commitment. A shop guy told me it's $10k? to just get Zipp? I may be off, but, still, he tossed out a much higher number for a minimum order, forget about any kind of tiered discount.
Again, keep in mind that this wasn't in the last year or two.
Also my understanding is that Zipp is aggressive about placing product, you have to order a lot of stuff to get into the better price tiers. In 2010 when HED was doing the Stingers you had to do 10 carbon wheels (5 pairs, but a pair of aluminum wheels counted as one carbon wheel) to get the best price. That's the year I bought 4 carbon and 1 pair of aluminum HEDs. I'm sure that really, really helps the shop meet the 10 wheel minimum as I bought 5 wheels worth of business. A shop could order a number of aluminum rimmed wheels and get the discount at a reasonable $ commitment. A shop guy told me it's $10k? to just get Zipp? I may be off, but, still, he tossed out a much higher number for a minimum order, forget about any kind of tiered discount.
Again, keep in mind that this wasn't in the last year or two.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
06-26-15, 07:05 AM
#70
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A company I once worked for referred to this as the 3/11 rule for customer service. The premise was that for every great experience a customer had, they would tell 3 people. But for every negative experience, they would tell 11.
06-26-15, 05:30 PM
#71
Senior Member
People always tend to remember and comment on their negative experiences over their positive ones. You could go through 1000 wheelsets, but chances are, you'll remember the one with problems more than all the others.
A company I once worked for referred to this as the 3/11 rule for customer service. The premise was that for every great experience a customer had, they would tell 3 people. But for every negative experience, they would tell 11.
A company I once worked for referred to this as the 3/11 rule for customer service. The premise was that for every great experience a customer had, they would tell 3 people. But for every negative experience, they would tell 11.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
06-26-15, 05:58 PM
#72
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I love my wheels and I shill for the guy all the time. Have sent at least 5 people his way to buy the wheels.
06-26-15, 06:11 PM
#73
out walking the earth
Thread Starter
06-26-15, 07:03 PM
#75
out walking the earth
Thread Starter
I paid like $800 for my last nice alu wheel build. From now on, I'll just pay the $900 to the RaceRims guy for the 50mm clinchers. They weigh less, brake well enough in all conditions, and feel good in the wind. They've also never needed to be trued in like ... 13-15k miles.
aren't they like $400 more that $900?