gsteinb

again, !!!ok!!!1!

I'm inclined to have certitude that you have not one wit of an idea of what I'm inclined towards.

Ygduf

Still unclear what I've done to you this time, but if you don't want to talk about it you maybe shouldn't invite me to talk about it. You said I'm anti-coach, which isn't at all true, but when I point it out and explain the joke you suddenly dislike my use of exclamation points. I'm afraid to otherwise offend you now so I'll just trai

gsteinb

Your ability to project is really a subject of wonder.

I'm not inviting you to talk about anything. You're free to, and do, as you choose.

I've been using exclamation points, btw, since before you were born. You don't have any trademark on them.

I'm honestly not the least bit offended. That you think you hold that much sway..

And again, you're just spit balling. You're just ascribing emotions where you'd like them to be.

runthegauntlet

I disagree with this and agree with jdms mvp.

I routinely podium 1,2 crits with mid 1100 watt sprints after significantly raising my ftp. That further allowed me to absolutely rail the last two minutes to get into position. Aerobic foundation is huge. That's why I mentioned that sprinting doesn't happen without positioning. And if your position is good enough, you can podium without dropping big numbers in a sprint just by virtue of being where you need to when you need to be there.

canuckbelle

You may note that I didn't say a single thing about developing more power: my comment was entirely about *mechanics* of sprinting technique. One can practice the latter entirely in the small ring doing form sprints.

runthegauntlet

Practice sprinting in your little ring? I liken that to one-legged drills. Total waste of time. If you're going to practice sprinting, just do so. Do you practice standing on a climb by riding into a headwind in your 53x11? A bit silly.

I actually recant my initial quip about totally agreeing with jdms mvp. I wouldn't never not practice sprints, just like I wouldn't never not practice anything. But I certainly wouldn't make it a priority, and would certainly work on FTP and VO2max, first. But you have to sprint to do basically anything (cornering, attacking, bridging, etc), so you're pretty much doing it all the time anyway.

Suffice to say, my point is that you will never win a sprint from the back. So work on the stuff that will actually get you to the front. Otherwise, the entire discussion is moot.

bostongarden

Can we shorten the title of this thread to just its first word? Just a hunch, but, with that title it could become a record setting thread.

canuckbelle

That's a terrible idea, and here are thirteen reasons why...

I actually like the idea.

Ygduf

It's already a record setter in my heart.

Racer Ex 

Comparing a 1/2 crit (where only a select few are going to end up) to anything below that isn't a good comp. V02 certainly can come into play but FTP is a non event in most 1/2 crits.

Until you get into P/1 stuff, trying to build FTP for crits is a waste of training time, unless you're riding away off the front. V02 massaging can help you recover when the hits come.

I rarely if ever saw an average power of much over 300w in anything other than NRC level races, or big purse "downtown" stuff. Then the poop really hit the fan.

Cat 3 or below a good sprint at the end of the race (which is more about conserving and positioning) will win you more races than a giant FTP or a big V02. Most p1/2 fields are full of guys who won a lot below that level, but rarely if ever win once they upgrade. Big sprint, V02/FTP not so much.

So how you train depends on where you feel you might end up.

And if you're winning bunch P1/2 sprints at 1100w, you don't have many real sprinters. And all this assumes your power meter is giving you good data. E I E I O.

johnybutts

Ygduf

rolling around at 185 I realize I've become kind of critisized.

furiousferret

This is a great title. Its got soul, desperation. Its to bike racing what 8 Mile is to rap.

gsteinb

sprintah

jdms mvp

i know there are camps on both ends of the spectrum and surely many in between, but i'd be interested in knowing how many riders have gotten better at riding by reading?

like everyone says 'look at mark cavendish' 'how low he sprints' 'let me practice to sprint like that'..... but that example (and others aside), i've personally found that sprinting, climbing (blah blah best cadence talk) seated/standing, bike fit, are all like what your body just will naturally do. For sprinting, sure, go on group rides and sprint for city limit signs, but im not entirely sure about practicing certain mechanics that might not be simply natural to riding. Again, that's just my opinion, which is from an amateur self-coached rider with no authority typing words on an internet forum. A teammate of mine got into a coaching plan where the guy/coach told him to start lifting and motorpace sprinting and all these convoluted things. He raised his peak 5s power 300w (~1400w for someone 150lbs), but in an entire season never got to the finish line to deploy it and DNF'd a few cat3 races for lack of 'FTP'.

my thought is worry about sprinting when that's like one of the latter pieces of the puzzle of fitness, positioning, and other ares dialed. When suddenly you are lining up against team trains or dudes who specialize, then the minor mechanics might get you that little bit extra.

canuckbelle

I agree! ...which is why I find it very odd that you're disagreeing with me. By doing small ring 'form' sprints, he's not adding lots of training stress. Sure, you never get to deploy sprinting skills if you're not around at the end in good position with fresh enough legs to contest...but when you DO find yourself so positioned, having done at least a little practice on the sprint will give you a big edge.

For OP (since I used to play poker professionally for 6yrs, back in the day), it'd be like never practicing heads-up (if one is a tournament player) because you have to be good enough to last an entire tournament to get that far...but when you DO final table and get heads up, you'll be in big big trouble if you've never practiced the mechanics of heads up play.

Same thing with a sprint. If you think that you sprint by dropping it straight into the 12 (or 11) and mashing the pedals...well...can I sprint against you?!? Because I'll beat you every time, even if you're fresher. Mechanics matter. It's not taking away from FTP/VO2 training to do small ring form sprints. It's not 'either/or' here...it's 'both/and.'

globecanvas

I have totally gotten better at sprinting by "practicing certain mechanics that might not be simply natural." I'll never be a sprinter but have absolutely improved from pathetic to slightly above mediocre.

But I also completely agree that this sort of training is not nearly as advantageous for a beginner as working on vo2max on short recovery, etc. Sprinting is literally the last piece of the puzzle and improving it is high hanging fruit.

gsteinb

I'm not sure I understand what the argument is. Why wouldn't one practice sprinting? As if that means only one thing. If you're hell bent on big FTP then practice sprinting after a lot of FTP work. I have serviceable sprint. Most folks actually think my sprint is way better than it is. Way. The reality though is I just usually have one of the better sprints at the end of a race. The harder the better, because it weeds out better power guys. I reckon I can find 10 or 15 cat 3s in a race field who would demolish me head to head at a rested sprint. But none of those guys would beat me an actual race because there's more to it than just that. But it doesn't change the need to learn the mechanics of actually sprinting. Since when is training binary anyway?

globecanvas

I raced with gsteinb I think 6 times this year and I think he won the field sprint in 5 of them. In one race where I was in the field too and completely not a factor and he outsprinted the pack by like 3 bike lengths, afterward he said "I hit X watts which is a lot for me", where X is a number I can hit 10 times in a row when rested.

mattm

lol love it

mattm

ffs can we stop talking about sprinting?

this thread actually has nothing to do with actual sprinting, as pointed out by me on the last page.

gsteinb

dunno. I respectfully disagree.

Thread sub title: NEED to get better for next season no matter what.

Point 2: To improve sprints what changes I have to make?

Since sprinting, on that level the OP is remains one of the most effective ways to improve results it would seem that in a broad analysis of how to improve his results next season (no matter what) it would be prudent to include sprint training. Perhaps the (no matter what) should include a cautionary tale of avoiding PED usage.

Grumpy McTrumpy

it's pretty well established that I am not a natural sprinter.

However, since I have been working on sprinting technique over the past year, I have seen some clear improvements with regards to race placement (at least in our training races here).

The interesting part is that I have not made a max power PR. I have (this is the important part I think) seen improvements in sustainable time at sprint power. Lots of PRs from the 15s to 25s range.

canuckbelle

This was exactly my experience, too. I am a natural sprinter. I expect to be hitting >1500w next season (peak this season, in a race, was 1460). BUT by working on technique, I went from going 5-6 seconds and dying an ugly death, to sustaining power for 10, 20, 30 seconds. I'm using the power more wisely, and getting to the line less gassed. Technique.

carpediemracing 

My brother asked me about his wife's riding. She's a runner, she was thinking of duathlons, but couldn't get the hang of riding the road bike. My brother (who, like me, grew up pedaling as we spent our formative years in Holland), realized that his wife doesn't know what "comes naturally on the bike". For example she had to be taught how to rock the bike when standing out of the saddle. To her that was a foreign concept.

Not saying that that's the case all the time, but it's possible that what you and I take for granted it completely foreign to others.

I do agree that working on the sprint is the last thing to do. I have a decent sprint and I basically only race better when I work on FTP or weight. My sprint doesn't change much no matter what I do - it's always close to what it is. Difference is being able to sprint when I am already close to redline etc. In that respect I agree that working on FTP is important.

I helped one of globe canvas's teammates work on his sprint. In one email I described how he might improve his peak power. I don't remember the number but he bumped it up solidly without trying (maybe +200w peak? from 1200-1400+w). It was just describing tweaking the mechanics. Most of his races don't involve sprint finishes so it hasn't helped him but he regularly hits the higher numbers now. He just needed to approach the mechanics a bit differently.