Zedmor

It's more like self-organization post, I hope this kind of posts are ok here.

First what I have now:


5 sec - 822
60 sec - 505
5 min - 335
20 min - 288

I understood from my last post that my biggest hurdle other than skills is my sprinting. In last training crit (https://www.strava.com/activities/378989100) I was dropped just because of that. Train was up to catch a break and I was in last 2/3 of pack, guys in front of me couldn't do this crap anymore and I had to bridge about 40-50m. Not a big deal I though but despite I blowed out and gave everything wind got me after like 3 min of chasing. If I could be able to do like 1200/5 sec I would've bridged that no problem. Anyway here's how my training schedule looks like now. In case of rain I substitute that day with similar stuff on trainerroad.

Monday - tough group ride with cat3 guys, about 240-250np over 1.5 hours, hills and whatnot (example: https://www.strava.com/activities/355520861)
Tuesday - SS 3x20'@90 ftp or 2x30'@85 ftp or something like 90min@80% ftp - https://www.strava.com/activities/377228866 Or I go easy if I tired from tomorrow
Wendsday - I have two rides from and to daycare where I keep my son for a day. So that nets to 2x1 hour rides on hilly terrain, so it's perfect for vo2max intervals therefore I chase strava segments Example: https://www.strava.com/activities/376091240
Thursday: Weekly Great Valley training crit - pretty hard 30 miles around business park.
Friday: I m pro poker player so I have crazy work schedule - I work fri-sun like 15 hr/day + tuesday and one other day on a week. Anyway - Fri is my easy day. I do like 40 miles@200w around Atlantic City (flat as pancake) or even less if I tired. Enjoying weather
Sat - usually bike off day, or sometimes 7am semi-hard ride with local folks. Example: https://www.strava.com/activities/338912511
Sun - race day. If there's no race around then smth like that. Sprints? Or day off every third week.

That nets to about 500-600tss/week - 10-12 hrs and and I can keep my CTL around 75-80.

So I have some questions for you:

1. Is that ok plan for now or am I being lazy there? I am just a beginner in this sport and still have a lot to learn! Do I need more workload? Or may be less?
2. To improve sprints what changes I have to make?
3. In transition to winter I am thinking of doing more weight training (squats/squat jumps with bar and other things) - what should I replace with weight training? I am thinking thirsday (I don't know when training crit ends, I guess oct). Do I need 2 day of weight training/wk?
4. I run like 3 miles daily with my dog. Is it ok or it hurt my training overral?

Any advises would be really appreciated!

cmh

MMy general advice is you need to rest more. Others will give advice on specific workouts.

Welcome to the 33.

mattm

In my opinion, it wasn't lack of a sprint that hurt you in the race.

It was a) positioning and b) just not being able to recover fast enough, or maybe not able to suffer enough.

a) is easier to fix than b).

In every level, most guys at the back of the pack are there because they aren't fit enough to be up front. Thus you'll run in to the issue of "dude opened a gap, damn", way more often in the back than you will towards the middle or the front.

Not to mention the accordion effect.. life is generally harder at the back, best to avoid it (until you're sandbagging or strong enough to close those gaps).

As for b), recovery/suffering, just keep riding, racing, doing intervals. b) could be due to not having a jump as well, but it doesn't matter if you can do 2000w while rested.. it's about what you can do while maxed out.

tommyrod74

I'm going to advise to have fewer hard days and make them REALLY hard. Avoid group rides.

A good template is 2 interval rides during the week, 1 long Z2 ride on the weekend, and 2 recovery days. Keep the recovery days guilt-producingly easy.

If you race, have one other very hard interval workout that week and keep everything else Zone 2 or below.

Seriously, it seems like you aren't giving your body any chance to adapt. That's a good recipe for stagnation and burnout.

carpediemracing 

I read this as:
Monday: Hard
Tuesday: Hard
Wednesday: Hard
Thursday: Hard
Friday: Long
Saturday: Hard or rest
Sunday: Hard

My schedule tends to be something like this:
Monday: Off
Tuesday: Race (avg 160-200w for an hour)
Wednesday: Off?
Thursday: Ride (not very hard, maybe 100-120w, 1-2 hours)
Friday: Easy or off (Easy means 70-120w, 1/2 to 1 hour)
Saturday: East or off
Sunday: Race (avg 160-180w, usually easier than Tues since I try stupid things on Tues), usually 1 hour.

To me it seems like you have no recovery. Think of riding as doing a bench press. To improve your bench press you don't do massive effort bench presses all day every day. You'd just get more sore and more tired. You don't get better by training, you get better when you recover. Otherwise we'd be riding 24/7 because after 12 hours of riding we'd be stronger than we were after 2 hours of riding. The reality is that you get weaker and more fatigued as you train, and if you don't recover completely, you never give your body a chance to overcompensate in recovery and get stronger.

Because of my pathetic FTP any group ride for me is a massive, massive ride, usually harder than a race. In a race I only get shelled once. In a group ride I can get shelled after each regroup, light, stop, whatever.

In 2014 I was racing semi-competitively in the 3s and M45s on 1-2 hours a week. Better races are here. Here. Here. Here. Here.

In 2015 I raced pretty well and I've done 157 hours for the year. Won a race, two 3rds, and some high-ish placing in another. Did a P123 race on a lark, decided to do it an hour before th race, arrived just before start, and sat up with half a lap to go due to cramps (40? mile race). I'm probably done for the year, and my schedule since mid-June has been a bit hectic, but such is life.

Also although I tried lifting to improve my sprint I don't think it did much so I stopped. Okay, if I was on the track or something, maybe it'd help. But for normal Cat 3 crits, M45 crits, whatever sprint I got from my parents is fine. It's no Greipel or toaster power level but it's fine. I tried lifting here and there over a 20-30 year period (when I say "try" it means I try it for 1-2 seasons before passing judgment) and it didn't affect my racing as much as losing weight or pushing my training to 4-5 hours a week.

Ygduf

1- first few years that plan is fine, imo.
2- practice them. they are less about power and more about timing into the wind.
3- first few years I would just ride. it's an aerobic sport. learn about the muscular system and aerobic workload. train to that.
4- yes, of course. that's work into your legs that you cannot be doing on the bike because it's already done. teach your dog to ride a bike and follow you.

gsteinb

He's lives on the opposite coast from you. There's really no reason to try and burn him out as to prevent competition.

Zedmor

First thank you so much for input! It's so unusual and breathtaking to see ppl who way better in any aspect than newcomers to be serious and on topic. Well, may be that's partly because just to enroll to first race you have to dedicate thousand hours or so in suffering on the bike and still then be dropped haplessly.

To address couple of points: Yeah, I do think I am taking training too far sometimes. Partly why I wrote this post is some symptoms of overtraining that I experienced: fatigue, depression etc. But interestingly enough all that going away when I got on the bike! It's like world is bleak and meaningless but after a ride life have sense again. I guess that's dopamine but what I can do?

Like yesterday I barely could ride 40 miles with like 150w average and was reeeeally tired after so I took a full day off today. I can't ride today but I think about cycling all the time....

But I know I gonna be good as new tomorrow And thing is this plan that I am doing more or less being the same for last year so I guess I adapted to that But idea to keep my training more polarizing is appealing to me! So I guess I keep Monday and Thursday as my hard days and keep other days (esp wendsday and friday) way easier to give my body more time to adapt

Regarding group rides - I don't do that anymore, but monday group is really challenging and keep me on my toes all the time and that's important. No amount of will or prescribed load (read trainerroad/structured workout) was ever been motivating for me than feeling that "You should not get dropped today no matter what". I dunno that's how my brain works, I guess I shouldn't fight that. Thursday crit is so important obv since it's $0 weekly race that I am gonna do as long I commited to sport I guess. Keep posting

And just to prove this is not imaginary plan, I am doing about thing for this season...

furiousferret

Bear in mind I'm one of the newer guys here that was asking these same questions 24 months ago...

I think the best thing for an unexperienced athlete is variance; try out everything for a few weeks and eventually you'll figure out the best way to improve. Things that work for one person may not work for the next. Make sure your cornering is efficient. Collectively bad cornering wastes a ton of energy and in the long run its the easiest way to blow up at the end of a race. Listen to @mattm, he knows his stuff.

As for your questions...
1. Is that ok plan for now or am I being lazy there? I am just a beginner in this sport and still have a lot to learn! Do I need more workload? Or may be less?
The more time I ride at intensity (z3+) the better. Other things work for other people. Try to ride fresh.
2. To improve sprints what changes I have to make?
Practice sprinting....weights, form work, and high cadence work helped me.
3. In transition to winter I am thinking of doing more weight training (squats/squat jumps with bar and other things) - what should I replace with weight training? I am thinking thirsday (I don't know when training crit ends, I guess oct). Do I need 2 day of weight training/wk?
1 day a week is pretty taxing if you have any real volume
4. I run like 3 miles daily with my dog. Is it ok or it hurt my training overral?
Personally, I think running saps watts but that's just my opinion

Zedmor

Wow you described that like you been there! I came to last crit with one idea only - to spend AS little energy riding first 30-40 minutes and doing timed attacks, like you guys advised me in other topic. Tight-agressive like we call it in poker

Anyway I tucked just nice in the end of the train and thought I am golden but suddenly with all these breaks and accordion effect and ppl is not able to keep pace I had to bridge gaps on my own and that apparently took more power that being in front that I evaded. I remember I tried to catch with leadling group but these guys are strong and I am not... yet. Well I guess I have to be in middle rather than end or closer to head of a ride to avoid constant gap closing.

Ygduf

I cut 21 miles/week off his running plan!

echappist

you say you "NEED to get better no matter what." I think you meant you want to get better no matter what. Big differences.

Semantics aside, if you say no matter what, then it's time to get a coach. someone who can see the forest from the trees and provide you with some structure. Not everyone can be good as self coaching, and for some who can't, having a coach takes away a lot of the mental anguish

few other things:

-as others pointed out, there's no mention of recovery days, off days, and recovery weeks. those need to be scheduled in
-a quick look at your strava profile shows that you are also doing a bit of running. That's just added stress when it comes to racing season. Some cross training during base is okay
-ditto for weight. i do a bit of lifting during base and build, and it has done wonders (for me at least) with respect to muscle fatigue
-you say you have a kid in day care and has a job that has weird hours. Don't underestimate the strains and tolls that life stress and work stress has. All of the above needs to be managed

Zedmor

hope he would approve https://instagram.com/p/6kQq9gO8jh/?taken-by=cryozed

Zedmor

Well regarding coaching it's not like I am at dead end or have no improvement. Quite opposite I know few people who progress as fast as I am, so I guess I am doing something right But that's I am really considering.

In terms of recovery I am taking more like stress balance approach (ATL-CTL). So I am trying to keep my stress balance over -10 and trying to do races with SB > 10 (means having 2 day offs befre race). And if you take a look at my daily schedule you will see periodization (like hard day - easier day - easy day). I am not totally unaware of important stuff and my stress balance is like thing that I pay more attention than anything in my training, I guess because I am afraid of overtraining and so

Family and work have it's toll though, it's hard to manage since it leads to having nothing else in life than cycling, work, family. But I am ok with that I guess.... I consider myself a happy person.

echappist

something to think about is that your body down-regulates the expression of certain oxidative enzymes after 48-72 hours. To get back at the level you are at before, it takes additional stimuli (and most likely two days worth of time). One day off really doesn't make too much of a dent, but i'd caution against 2 days. This could also expalin why you may be a bit blocked up during races.
stress is also not embodied by TSB as it fails to take into account of a lot of factors. TSB doesn't know if you had to sit through a 10-hr poker tournament, or if you had to stay up very late due to your child being sick, or if you caught no sleep at all. TSB is a good estimate of stress level but by no means definitive. Of course being happy overall is a good thing, but it doesn't means that other things in life are affecting your training.

gsteinb

His TSB obviously doesn't know he's running 21 miles a week.

TheKillerPenguin

It's basically been covered by everyone else but I wanted to add emphasis to the needing more recovery thing. 200W isn't recovery for anyone, your friday recovery day is a solid endurance workout.

Note the power for "easy", and note the name at the top of the workout.

MZilliox

You don't ride in the rain? I think that is your problem. And not ever resting. rest and ride in the rain and you will improve.

Voodoo76

That picture is worth a thousand words. It takes discipline to complete a good recovery ride. And not 150W average but <150W.

TheKillerPenguin

One other thing that's already been covered somewhat - a ctl of 80 doesn't matter if your w/kg @ftp (edit: and vo2, and 1min power, etc, but ftp is what tss is based around so ctl value is relative to your own fitness rather than some absolute) is 20% lower than your competition's. You need to train to get stronger first and worry about ctl second.

runthegauntlet

That picture looks totally concocted.

420 ftp?

And he's listed at 62 kgs, probably less in the TDF.

The numbers don't even remotely add up.

runthegauntlet

To echo what's already been said, there's way too much intensity.

I shoot for 2-3 hard sessions a week, and that's all. The rest just steady easy pace (mid Z2ish). I follow the "less you ride, the harder you ride" mantra, so when I'm approaching 13+ hours my z2 becomes the lower end, but still, no more than 3 hard rides a week, and usually just two.

And sprinting is positioning. Can't have the former without the latter and expect to do as well as you can.

bostongarden

Matt is one of the more modest Cat 1s out there. He doesn't like to brag about the accordion effect being named after him.

jdms mvp

dont practice sprinting. practice raising your FTP because that will get you to the line fresher, and in better position to deploy a subpar sprint.

canuckbelle

I *completely* disagree. Sprinting is more than just raw power. There's a lot of technique in working on the jump (and what gear to do it in), how to spin out a gear before shifting, when to shift, and how to spin up the next gear...then when to sit down and hammer for all you have left if it's a long sprint.

I learned a lot from reading CDR's posts and practicing. I'm sure my technique can still be better, but I already know that it's better than most everyone I'm competing against (partly because they take your view of not practicing the *mechanics* of sprinting).