Nicolo M.

A lot of information here...I watched one minute of the vid and, having seen enough, would offer these 3 suggestions:

1. Stage early to get a better starting spot, even if this means sacrificing a bit of warmup. Much easier to start at the front and drift back (AKA "surf") than the opposite.

2. Start assertively, safely working yourself up into the Top 5-10 ASAP.

3. Safely and assertively do whatever it takes to stay there (Top 5-10) until one lap to go.

Whatever happens after one-to-go is beyond the scope of your question...however come into the race with the mindset that your only goal is to assertively but safely get into the Top 5-10 and assertively but safely stay there, always remembering: "Nothing good happens at the back of a bike race." This is way easier said than done--the fitness and feel for what it takes to do this efficiently will come with repetition (= keep racing!). Get at it and good luck!

mike868y

^see CDR for a counter example to just about every part of that post.

grolby

As above, I don't think staging early is a solution because it's not an actual racing skill. If you have the right skills, you don't need to get sweaty about staging for the majority of races.

I think the other two points are just so vague as to be meaningless. I have no doubt the OP would like to safely and assertively work his way into the top 5-10 and stay there (though I also disagree that hanging out in the front all the time is necessarily the right thing in a crit). Question is HOW. None of these things are skills, they're just goals.

carpediemracing 

I have a few hundred pages typed out so far, in one place. I'm trying to get motivated to finish it off but it's been decades since I started what is now "The Book".

carpediemracing 

That's a great way of defining the differentiation. I always get hung up on "tactics" vs "technique". Most everything people talk about when they talk "tactics" is technique (like how to corner, or how to do a sprint. I realize now that another thing is the "goal" thing. Sitting top 5 or whatever, that's a goal. You need to have some technique to be there (know how to draft etc) but also some tactics (how to be 5th wheel when 5 other people, minimum, want to be 5th wheel at the same time).

wens

Wait, winning the race to the race is totally a racing skill. There are ways other than showing up early though.

carpediemracing 

To counter the top 5-10 thing, with all due respect. It's something I've been told over and over, it's something that was pounded into my head when I started racing, and it was something we all strived to do back in the day.

What I realized pretty quickly is that, first, it took an immense amount of power (later I could define this as FTP) to stay in the top 5 or 10. You're constantly responding to moves, you can't relax, it's very difficult. This for anything where the field isn't organized, like UHC dragging the field around for 20 or 30 laps with rider order basically unchanged the whole time. In my life I've only experienced that kind of tactical nothingness once, and it was when two guys pulled the rest of the field around for about 13 or 14 minutes. We literally didn't change order behind them for that time. It was as if someone hit the "pause" button. Literally nothing happened to develop the race, even in the field.

So for normal riders (the ones writing the books seem to be pretty good, like ex-pros and such), holding a top position in a field is very, very difficult. It may not be difficult to get there, or to be there for a minute or two, but to do it for the duration of the race? Frankly it's very wasteful. If a rider is skilled enough to sit top 5 or 10 in a race then they're skilled enough to also sit 25th or 30th and save a ton more energy, all while being in virtually the same tactical situation.

When I sit at the back a lot of the potential race winners, riders with literally dozens of national titles (one has something like 30? titles, others have "only" 5 or 8 or something), are sitting there with me. They move up earlier than me because they can. I have to wait because moving up at 5 to go means I'll be blown up before the bell. If I'm super aggressive I move up at 5 to go, 3 to go is if I'm feeling really good, and 2 to go is if I'm feeling normal. 1 to go for certain courses and also if I'm hanging on for dear life anyway.

Although I'd be a bit horrified if someone actually tried to copy my own tactics (because I'm assuming that everyone is physically more capable than me so no one should sit at the back as late as I do) I've waited until the last lap to move up from literally the back of the field. I caught it once on video, but before the camera it was almost an inside joke. I'd be 10 or 15 feet off the back of the field at the bell, turn to a buddy (for some reason the same guy used to be around, usually because he would do my race for training after "racing for real" in an earlier race, and he usually sat up at the bell), and say, "Okay, it's miracle time." Then I'd move up, hope there wasn't an effective (not just organized, effective) leadout, and try to place. I've won races like that and placed 2nd and 3rd a number of times. The shelter in the field can be so significant that such moves can be possible, if you have enough leg speed (for moving up) as well as a decent sprint.

Here I move up with less than half a lap to go, lead out the sprint, and get passed by two guys. One of them is a multi time Masters National Champ, he pips me at the line, and really, I was so wasted that I'm surprised more people didn't pass me. In that race there was a leadout, but it was ineffective. Tactics were there, execution lacked.


In another race I was pretty well buried coming up to the finish (at about 7:20). A friend who raced on the blue team (working against me) said that he even told his teammates on the backstretch, yeah, "He (meaning me) is stuck back there, we're good for the sprint." He was one of the last riders to leadout his teammate Bryan and he said he almost fell off the bike when I went blowing by him. Both him and Bryan joined my team shortly after.

So one aspect of it is that I moved up pretty hard even when the group was going pretty fast (they were going 33 mph?). I was doing about 35-36 mph, I must not have broken 36 mph consistently else I'd have put "36+ mph" and not "35+ mph" in the clip. People talk about how you don't need a 53 or an 11 (or, what I used to use for about 10 years, a 54T, and, for a year recently , a 55T because that's all I had). The thing is that with a big gear I can move up without spinning too much (spinning really fast will accelerate your heartrate). I can do more of a leisurely move up rolling a 53x11, while other guys may be spinning a 12 or, worse, a 50x12, etc. I recommend all racers, even for flat races (especially for?) to have big gears. With airfield and other flat races you could have a 20 or 30 mph tailwind and you might be holding 42-44 mph on that straight. Doing that in a 53x11 is much easier than a 53x12.

In the clip below there's a descent at the beginning, maybe 2:15 in. I don't think we went much more than 45 mph so it wasn't super fast. You can see some riders trying to pedal really fast, meaning they were in a bad gear or they had too low of a high gear. Much more stable soft pedaling or doing a tuck. Guys in white (a group based on their matching kits) pass me, they seem pretty fluent, and there's a "Quick Step" guy in there. The QS rider keeps going, I follow. QS rider has an 11, I only had a 12. You can see how he's pedaling within reason, no crazy spinning. I couldn't do much until the road flattened out. Then I got shelled, of course. (I only had about 50-60 psi of air in the tires because I was late to the ride, no gloves, etc, so normally I'm gloved and I can corner better).

grolby

LOL, this reminded me of the 3/4 race last year in Worcester when I was buried deep in the field at 1 to go and figured my race was over. Then a hole opened on the back stretch and I went from basically 30th to about 10th wheel in two corners with maybe a quarter lap to go. Ended up being moot when the guy in front of me crashed out and took me down with him, but in retrospect kind of hilarious and, yes, horrifying, to think of relying on last lap heroics to get into contention. It's not an approach I would recommend to anyone. Part of why it works, now I think of it, is that there are so many riders who have been fighting to hold a high position all race and they're just blown by the time the surge comes on the last lap. So you end up with a huge proportion of the front of the field just going backwards on the bell lap. It's a good musical chairs game for someone coming up with the skills and leg speed to take advantage of those vacated spots. But if you can start positioning earlier, that's the smarter move.

carpediemracing 

A good friend of mine and I raced a lot in the late 80s and early 90s in the NYC area. Talk about cut throat. I remember sitting on the curb next to the start line for more than a full race before my race, and when I stood up I was in the 3rd row (Harlem Crit, probably 1992 or that era).

One guy used to swerve back and forth to protect position, like 6 foot wide swerves, near the front of the field, diving into a turn at 30-35 mph. He made such aggressive moves that even directly on his wheel I didn't think he could stay upright and I braked. Once he went flying up the inside curb coming up to a 90 degree turn with 2 turns to go. The field was basically crossing our bow perpendicular to our direction of travel. We were going about 35 mph and I didn't think we could make the turn even if no one else was on the road, forget about a bunch of similarly amped racers crossing our inevitable path. He did some crazy stuff in that turn, no one crashed, slotted in about 3rd or 4th, and won the race.

My buddy and I weren't as aggressive, we just watched with our jaws on the floor. We went to the last two Tour of Michigans, a crit stage race. For Cat 3s it was eight 25 mile crits in ten days, with two? rest days. We were amped because this was a Big Deal because it was as far as we traveled for a race (priors included Allentown, Baltimore, Maine, and for us 2 hours each way was sort of normal). We arrived like New Yorkers. We wanted to get a front row spot (which meant we'd really be on the 3rd row), we yelled, all that.

Well we lined up like we did in NY and guess what? We were literally on the front row. (Me in red/white, he's originally from Sierra Leone and he's in blue).



I'd yell "watch it!" (better than "right" or "left" because in NY if you yelled "right!" everyone swung right to close the door on you) and guys would freeze. I yelled "right" once and the guy in front of me moved out of the way!

My buddy and I were like, wow these midwestern guys are really polite. We didn't take advantage too much because we felt it was unfair.

They also cornered soooo much faster than NY guys. I remember watching a guy screaming into a turn a few spots ahead of me. He did this slow motion topple as he just laid the bike over. His wheels disintegrated when they hit the curb at about 35 mph. When I got back from the Tour de Michigan every corner seemed really slow, and, in fact, I haven't scared myself in a turn in a long time.

carpediemracing 

That's gold.

In 2014 I wasn't that fit, less so than usual, and I resorted to doing the B races on Tues nights (Cat 3-4-5). I was sometimes the only 3 and I got shelled plenty. However I tried to help my much stronger Cat 4 teammates. They'd ride at/near the front for most of the race but as soon as they put out 5 to go my teammates disappeared. They got crushed because they were working so hard to maintain a front position, which is exactly what you said.

In a race closer to you, I think it was Plymouth (is that sort of a meandering narrow road that really doesn't have a hill, but there is a rise up to a flat, windswept finishing straight?) I was trying to stay further up because back then I thought that was necessary. Also I was afraid of getting caught behind a crash on the narrow 2 lane road. It didn't matter as someone up ahead of me crossed wheels and tumbled across the field, taking out everyone behind him. I fell into the grass above and next to the road.

I got back on the bike, rode on the grass to clear road, started going, and realized that the wheel van had gotten past the mess and was behind me. I heard him gun his engine so I went harder. The van guy eased off. I kept going whenever the van guy started to try to pass me.

About maybe 5 or 8 accelerations, to my shock, I saw the field in front of me, just before this short, not very steep hill to the finishing straight. I'd been chasing for a mile or two and the field must have been totally stalemated for me to catch them. Not just that but there was a gap on the left curb. I shot up it, ended up 4th wheel as the sprint launched (they jumped, went across the road, and basically picked me up as I shot out from the field). I thought this was a sure thing for a top 6 in a RR, something I had to get to get upgraded to 2 (you had to place in RR, Crit, and you had to place top 6). The guy in 2nd fell over somehow, guy in front of me endo'ed over the guy on the ground (who was gray faced as people bounced off of him), and I went flying off onto the grass again.

It's the only time I've ever chased back onto a field. I wish I knew what happened up front because I have no idea how I got back on.

Wylde06

This needs to come back.

carpediemracing 

The third year we knew about it we didn't go because it was something like 6 crits and 4 mountain bike races. I think the whole "massive shut down of downtown blocks for a whole day" probably cost them a fortune, and mountain bikes was the big thing. Sponsored by a health insurance company I think.

$90 entry for all that? Crazy. The next year it was something like $120.

grolby

CDR, that could have been Myles Standish or some predecessor, I don't know the history of the race. Currently the run in to the finish is downhill, though.

carpediemracing 

Myles Standish makes sense, Plymouth was in town. I watched a recent YouTube clip just now, I totally don't recognize the finish. I even went back and forth trying to figure out where it might have been, can't find it. But the rolly stuff before the finish is all familiar, as in "Oh, is that where I fell?!".

TexMac

Nice vid. Your power seems strong enough to hold in a crit.
Maybe a silly question but how/what are you training for these crits?
I've seen guys train 4x4 or 5x5 and get dropped in crits. I'm assuming you know 30sx30s or 1x10 are ideal or simulates crits.

Zedmor

3х3 5х5 and strength training. Taking care of 0-30s part of CP is important imo It's all on strava https://www.strava.com/athletes/3413340 and trainerroad https://www.trainerroad.com/career/zedmor

I would not say "I am fit" though - people who post about 1000w@10" or smth like that makes me pee my pants really

TexMac

Oh okay i follow you...wait isn't your ftp like 300w?

Zedmor

Technically I did lactate test with bmx insight - it got me 300 last summer, 20' is 285w... But... But!

So it's around then (last summer) what I learned about crits fitnesswise - FTP dosent' mean **** IF your 0-30s sucks. Because those power surges for like 400-500w more toxic for your legs than steady 300w effort if you not ready (duh). I mean if your best 30" is like 800w it's peanuts for you, you not getting gassed. But if it's like 550 like it was for me it's different story.

What I mean if two guys each who can ride 20' for 315w but one of them have like 10' CP like 1200 and another like 700w, 1200w guy will always win in crit even with no sprint.

Do you see how cdr always complains about his low FTP? Like he get dropped on group rides and so? Well it does not mean anything because 500w@30" for him is like nothing.

grolby

Don't be so dismissive of FTP in crits. You're right that it's not sufficient, but a high FTP is incredibly valuable. What's bad is focusing on FTP too much and being flat, but if you give the proper attention to other durations, a higher FTP means recovering from those efforts in the group is easier, and when those efforts are less far away from your FTP they don't take as much out of you.

I can't speak for CDR, but I think his FTP is realistically a major liability that he is able to work around in certain situations thanks to racecraft and good short duration power. It doesn't mean nothing at all, and the faster the races get, the less helpful it is being able to draft well and move through a pack easily. The lesson from CDR is, holy crap, what could this guy do if he had an average-to-high FTP for a Cat 3?? Not that it's irrelevant.

wens

There's also the fact that guys who both have a big engine and know how to use it are uncommon in cat 3 races, once they figure out how to hurt people with their strength, upgrade time really fast.

carpediemracing 

+1

carpediemracing 

I was curious so I looked at some power files from 2015. My highest 30 seconds usually happen in the sprint, and, in races where I either won or got 3rd (there was one of the former, three of the latter), my max 30s number was in the low 600s, like 610w. Keep in mind that this is including typically an 1100w jump and a sustained 900-1000w sprint. This means that my 30s power also includes 10s of almost nothing, because, at best, I'm doing 1000w for about 15s. To average it down to 600w I'd have to be doing very little for the rest of the 30s.

For literally every single 30s power that didn't include the end of the race for my 4 best races in 2015, my max 30s were typically in the 350-440w, and more often in the 350-410w range. There was one effort in the 500w range and it was 503w and it was just before the finale at Limerock, so it was me when I got balked on the hill and I had to punch it while going uphill just to try and get some positions back. For me that was a desperate move.

I won a race with a 609w final 30s, I got third with 545w, 601w, and 609w. Keep in mind my jumps were typically 1000-1100w (the win was 900w max, with 800w, 500w, and 700w surges in the last 30 seconds) so at some point I'm coasting for a decent bit of time in the last 30 seconds.

My best minute I think is about 590w, and that was while I was struggling to hold position in the last lap of a race, ultimately exploding three turns from the finish. It included about a 1200w jump just to hold position. P123 race.

FTP certainly would help me in a crit. Instead of trying to sit in super well, and staying at 120-150w, I could be a bit more involved. When things get strung out and minimum power requirements go into the 250w range, I wouldn't have a 3-5 minute fuse, I'd still be comfortable. Or instead of going almost 4x (800w) my FTP when trying to bridge, I could go 2.5x (still 800w if my FTP was 100w higher).

To put it in perspective my teammate Cliff in the 2010 Francis J Clarke race (he helped me immensely, covered moves I couldn't cover, and led me out) averaged 100w higher than me for the race. I did 187w, he did 287w. He led me out at 35 mph and my HR actually dropped 5 bpm while he led me out, allowing me to sprint effectively. Etc.

The effective power output of the electric motor driving the BB axle is about 110w, according to an article I read (200w output but with drag/etc article said effective boost was 110w). If I had that motor on for an entire race then I'd be at Cliff's average power. That's a huge difference.

carpediemracing 

This is where I'm coming from.

Applied to others, I look at other racers' FTPs and such and think, "man, if I could do that I could totally change the way I race!". Or, when trying to help someone, "If that racer saved more they could easily win solo." And the latter has happened a number of times. Those riders learned how to race, they have a better engine, and they're all 2s now. To give some numbers, one guy does his 5 min intervals at 485w, which is ludicrous to me. Another did 630w for a minute in Feb (so not super fit yet), and his first Cat 2 race was Battenkill and he got 2nd. Those are the two most memorable ones who gave me some numbers when I asked.

The thing is that if I can do it then others can also. It's a matter of sitting patiently, waiting for the right time. It's a tension filled existence. Someone asked if the sprint is the hardest part of the race. Physically, maybe, but it's by far the easiest part of the race mentally. Sprinting is like, well, like a climax. The stuff leading up to it is where there's uncertainty, tension, unsureness, and therefore it's very exciting. Letting go is the easy part. FOr me the most exciting part of the race is the final 3-4 minutes. For crits it's the last lap or two. For Limerock it's the last lap, period. The rest of the race is me trying not to get shelled and hoping there's some field left for a sprint. Usually the two go hand in hand, if the field is small and blows apart I'm off the back super quick. If the field stays together, even if there's a break, then for me that's great. I can do a field sprint and that's what I race for.

I do understand I'm a bit lower and therefore aero than others. But again, part of that is my choice in my bike position. When I fit my friend and we made some massive changes (2 cm longer stem, 2 cm drop on stem, almost 2 cm up on saddle) he had immediate improvements. It was both biomechanical as well as aero, with a bit of stability thrown in due to a longer/lower stem. He won the next three Tues nights and got 3rd in his end of season A race. Until then he was way off the wins in the Tues night races and struggling in the Sunday ones. I'm convinced that part of my efficiency is down to my position, meaning it's aero and it allows me to leverage my biomechanics effectively.

The picture below is in SoCal, Red Trolley, 2011, M35+. It's a hill (so on the hoods, since I typically stood at some point), into a headwind, and I was struggling just to hold wheels. I came off at 4 to go when it got a bit heated up. My most vivid memory was that Steve Hegg, 1984 Olympic gold medalist and someone who I thought was the absolute schnizzle back then, was in my race. He bridged to the winning break in those last 4 laps, couldn't hang, and finished just off the back of them. I have the black helmet and my head is down. The other guys are stronger than me but they're not as aero. Maybe they don't need to be because high FTP, but if it costs them 20-30w avg for the race...



Heh I just looked at the results for that race. I'm not listed, I guess they didn't send in DNFs. It looks like there were a lot of pros there.

ShutUpLegs

As others have said you cannot dismiss FTP. I have a relatively bad sprint (especially for a Cat 2 rider), but my FTP and 5' power are very high. On the other end of the spectrum I have a friend who has a max 5" of about 1600 watts, but a very low FTP. Very rarely, has he beaten me in a sprint if it comes down to it. Some of this is his race smarts and not conserving energy such as CDR (who does it very well), but by not paying attention to his threshold he never gets an opportunity to unleash his full potential in a sprint. It's definitely not the stronger rider who wins the race, but the smartest.

On another note I would agree with CDR's comments about conserving energy within a pack, but you need to understand your own strengths and plan. It is very hard to maintain position in the top 10 all the time, yes it's a good goal, but realize you waste a lot of energy doing it. If you are a sprinter sit back like CDR says and conserve energy. Although if you are like me and typically seeking a break or late attack than things are a little different, but tactically there is no one size fits all. Lets play out a scenario or two.

Scenario 1 - I'm looking to get in a break fairly early into the race. I will typically stay towards the front third because if a promising rider or group of riders go I want to be able to jump on a wheel quickly so that I don't get caught in no mans land and waste energy. This goes also if I want to try and establish a break. I don't want to attack from 40th because I've wasted so much energy by the time I get to the head of the race. There are multiple ways to attack and try to establish a break, but I won't get into that.

Scenario 2 - The late attack. This is where knowing your strengths are helpful. I know that in a bunch sprint my chances of winning are slim, but I know that if I attack from 2-3k out or with 2-3 laps to go in a crit, I can catch people off guard and use my 5' power to my advantage. I did a race this past year where that was the plan going into the race. I surfed around the group staying out of the wind. I tried to stay towards the front, but I didn't waste energy in doing it. If I drifted to the back, I waited for a wheel to follow to the front. My teammates did the same thing. We monitored breaks, did some work when needed, but for the most part conserved energy. On the last lap there is a short but very steep (20% grade) hill. It's to far from the finish to make a difference, but it can certainly take a lot out of you if you dig to deep. I told my teammates to be on the front into the hill, but keep it steady and dont crush it up the hill. We conserved energy and as we hit the hill riders went as hard as they could over the top, while we drifted towards the back of the group as we crested the top. In the last 4 miles or so my teammates brought me right to the front and strung out the group, dropping me off with 2k to go. I went off solo and that was that.

It's not all about the numbers. Knowing the race, how things could play out and how to conserve energy are key.

mattm

Outside of the ftp discussion, I don't think this is necessarily true.

In a drag-race where both riders show up to the line equally tired, they yeah. But that setup rarely happens.

Point is you don't need a huge sprint, or a huge ftp, to win crits.

Especially not cat 3/4/5 crits.