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Clarification of USAC 3H5c (effect of mishap in last 3k of a stage in stage race)

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Clarification of USAC 3H5c (effect of mishap in last 3k of a stage in stage race)

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Old 06-20-16, 06:32 AM
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fuggitivo solitario
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Clarification of USAC 3H5c (effect of mishap in last 3k of a stage in stage race)

If anyone, especially @shovelhd, has insights to this, i would gladly appreciate it. Background (long story) first.
Going into the crit of a stage race, I was in 10th place on GC; however, i crashed in the penultimate lap, with less than 1k left in the race. I stopped, unclipped, and checked my bike to see if there was any damage. After getting back on the bike, the trailing moto-ref told me to go on with the race (as opposed to reporting to the pit or to speak to a referee at the start/finish). In the last lap, there were more riders who crashed (at the same corner where I crashed).

After the race, I was told that ALL riders who crashed in the last 3k of the criterium would receive "same time" as the last rider in the field; yet this apparently wasn't the case as i received my actual time (59 sec behind the leader and 46 sec behind what was eventually determined to be end of the field). It was also apparent that riders who did crash in the last lap did not move down the GC.

Perplexed, I initially asked a first official (Official A) re: the disparity of riders who benefited from the "3K rule" and whom he considered to be the last rider in the field. He stated that as the "field" was considered to be too spread out, the last rider in the field is considered to have finished well over a minute down (in other words, after my actual finishing time). As the answer did not make sense (because if all riders who crashed were accredited a time more than a minute down, some would actually move down on the GC, which wasn't the case) Perplexed at this explanation, I asked Official A why this 3K rule was not uniformly applied. He told me to come back in about 10 minutes after he has had time to review the situation. Though his explanation during this initial period failed to make sense, Official A was courteous the whole time during the initial and subsequent conversations.

When I came back after ten minutes had passed, Official A stated that the ruling stood without providing any explanation in the original discrepancy and referred me to the chief referee. The chief referee, whose name i didn't catch, was rude, brusque, and imperious. He did not discuss how he determined which rider was considered to be the end of the pack (essentially avoiding the crux of my question) and instead insisted that I was lucky that I finished the race. When I insisted on him explaining just how the end of the field was determined, he raised his voice (so that people within 10 feet turned their head) and stated that the conversation is over and kept on stating that the discussion is over.

In a final ditch attempt, I grabbed the stage results (which have since been taken off of the results wall) and proceeded to ask any of the referees why I received my actual time instead of the pack's time, for my own edification should similar occasions arise in the future. One gentleman (Official C), whose name I did not catch but who had a distinct mustache, was kind enough to look into the matter. After a few minutes, he explained that there is indeed a 3K rule (viz. 3H5C), but that because I continued onwards without reporting to the pit, I essentially waived the benefit of the 3K rule. I explained to him that the reason I continued on was in a previous crit of a stage race (Millersburg), i was caught behind a rider who crashed in the last 1.5K of the crit; despite having reported to the pit, the officials placed me behind riders who caught up to my group, which was stopped due to the crash. The referee at that race stated that I was out of luck and should have been back on my bike ASAP. Thus, it didn't even occur to me that I should report to the pit after my crash. As they had al
Thus i have the following questions:

-a) rule 3H5C does not state that one needs to go to the pit; so was Official C wrong in referring to that (essentially used it as a convenient red herring)
-b) this is the text of 3H5C, the portions bolded seem to conflict with each other
i)
In the case of a group finish, the Chief Judge shall attempt to place as many riders as possible and those who follow shall be placed equal up to the point where individual riders can again be identified.

(ii)
A rider who suffers a mishap in the last three kilometers of a road race stage or after free laps have ended in a criterium stage shall be given the same finish time as the riders he was with at the time of the mishap, provided that the mishap was observed or otherwise verified by a race official. The rider shall be given his actual place across the finish line, or last in the stage if he is unable to cross the line.

Free laps in a criterium will be considered to have ended when the rider is unable to rejoin the race due to free laps expiring as set forth by regulation 3D5 (Free Lap Rule) as long as the rider is otherwise eligible for a free lap.

This rule shall not apply in cases of a hill climb finish.

The Race Commission shall determine the applicability of this rule to particular stages and circumstances
-c) what should i do in future events with regards to this (please save your snarks regarding not crashing)

Many thanks in advance

PS. Chief referee shall no longer remain nameless; his name is Kirk Leidy, notable for being sued for diverting funds from his club while promoting Tour de Toona

Last edited by echappist; 06-20-16 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 06-20-16, 08:42 AM
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No comment except that the bolded portions are not contradictions. You can be timed separately from your finish position. If you have a mishap with 1 to go and are given the same time as your group, let's say the group finishing between first and tenth, but are 70th across the line, you'll be placed 70th, not 10th, but with the same time as the 1-10 group.

Ok, actually I do have a comment. There are absolutely bad officials out there, whether because they're jerks, or because they're well-meaning but don't effectively/fairly referee or judge the race. However, the specific content of the rule in question is, as you're finding out here, basically irrelevant when you're dealing with officials who don't want to be questioned or don't want to alter the results for whatever reason. It's pretty understandable that an official wouldn't be completely up to speed on the details of a rarely-applied rule like 3H5C. But if they care, they hopefully will consult the rulebook and make a reasoned decision. You being exactly right about the correct interpretation of a particular rule has exactly zero utility in the process. Your issue here reminds me of the thread a while back where you were arguing with a promoter over what constituted aero equipment for a "no aero equipment" TT. You're, in my opinion, hyper-concerned about the precise letter of the rules, when the details of the rules simply aren't the source of or solution to your beef. I presume that none of this is your fault, but you do seem prone to rules lawyering, and let me tell you, people HATE rules lawyers.

tl;dr yes it sucks, to the extent that you have recourse it's in complaining to your local association or to Colorado. Having the Correct Interpretation of the rule next time this comes up (odds: extremely slim) doesn't matter and won't help you.
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Old 06-20-16, 09:09 AM
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good memory! and your comments certainly appreciated. You are also spot on about me trying to be letter of the law type as my job basically requires me to ruminate over the meanings of words and phrases on a daily basis (not to mention i'm thinking of law school).

i think i'll definitely file a complaint against the Mr. Leidy. The other two referees, however informative their explanations were, were at least courteous and respectful, but Mr. Leidy is the first referee with whom I had the distinct displeasure of interacting.

I certainly hope that I won't have to come across 3H5c in the future as it would imply another crash in yet another stage race crit. Perhaps i should just stick to standalone crits, where i've had much better luck, save for that one time when i endo-ed and lost my teeth...
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Old 06-20-16, 12:31 PM
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I don't do much stage races but I have to believe the 3 km rule is applied regularly. I know two instances where my (then) teammates crashed in the final stage of a stage race, a crit, and maintained their overall GC, which happened to be 4th in both cases. This was for Fitchburg when it was a stage race. I think one of them crashed pretty far out from the finish, meaning it wasn't the last lap. Not sure what rules/etc applied.

I hate it when officials refuse to acknowledge even the potential for an error on their part. In the old days I thought many officials were basically power hungry insecure socially-maladapted individuals. Nowadays it's nice that there are only a few of those kinds of officials. One told me to remove my "radio". It was my helmet cam, which was specifically legal at the time. She then told me I had to remove it anyway, thought about it for a bit, then said it was "loose equipment". Which is kind of ironic because it was as secure as anything else I had on since it was either inside my jersey (wires), velcroed to my helmet (cam part), or, given a minute, pinned into my pocket (camcorder). Another official, not one of the obnoxious types, could only shrug. "That's the Chief Ref and what she says goes."
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Old 06-20-16, 03:36 PM
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I have done 3 stages races so far this year and have another 2 to go. At my last one it rained all weekend which led to a slick and wet crit course. Of course there was a crash with about 4 laps to go. I was just about to make it through when a bike suddenly appeared in front of me. I got back up, put my chain on, and started going again. About 5+ riders went down. At the start line was told the free laps were over so I was pulled. Final results had me with the finish time of the group I was in (front group) but classified behind riders who had been dropped. Therefore no change in my GC. Obviously they did it correctly, sorry to hear about your mess and difficult official.
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Old 06-24-16, 12:39 PM
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That explains why you were so far back. Sorry, that seriously sucks.

I notice that many officials seem to have something about applying the pack finish rule. One example was Page county where I was about 10 bike lengths behind a teammate and 10 people were definitely between us (Based upon the results). Yet I was placed 47 seconds down on him when I crossed the line.

What I have learned is that here in MABRA you guys don't apply the "same time" rule all that liberally, or much at all.

You are 100% in the right. I say that you make as big of a stink about it as you can. You obviously followed all the right protocols (Talking to everyone, officials, etc.) it is on them now. If you make enough of a scene there is a chance something will happen.

Squeaky wheel and all that. Sorry dude.
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Old 06-24-16, 04:35 PM
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thanks for all the responses. I think i'm learning a bit from this process as well. I don't expect my results to change, and it probably won't end up mattering in the long run anyway as I wasn't planning on upgrading with just the bare minimum number of points anyway.

i'll definitely attempt to lodge a complaint against the chief referee, for he was the most unprofessional referee I had ever encountered.

In the mean time, i'll go improve my cornering. It turns out that this whole time (going back 3+ years), i have been approaching downhill corners completely incorrectly
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Old 06-24-16, 07:14 PM
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I'll answer your question here rather than the email you just sent me. I believe that you interpreted the rule correctly. You crashed in the final 3km so you should get the same time as the last rider. I understand the field was strung out at the back, that will happen in this scenario. I'm not going to criticize another official but I would have handled it differently if a) you reported to the CR immediately after you crossed the line and b) asked where you would be placed since you crashed on the last lap. That would have prompted me to ask the ten riders or so in front of you if they crashed. The back of the field would have been the last rider to cross that did not crash. That would be a simple way to handle it. However, if the field crossed as a group and you were 46 seconds behind them when you crossed, you must report to the CR immediately after you cross. It's too easy to cheat. I would want to see you racing. If you're coasting you're not making your case. Also, any type of rule explanation, surliness, attitude, anything other than respect and a conversational tone, and it's going to make your case a lot harder. Another factor is whatever is printed in the race guide. Races can publish their own interpretation of the rules that have been pre approved by the CR. For example, for Stage 1 at Killington, everyone gets the same time even if they finish 20 seconds behind the field.

I would encourage you to write the CR directly for clarification. You can also write USAC, either the road committee or Derek himself.
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Old 06-25-16, 11:11 AM
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Thanks for your input on this. By Derek, do you mean Mr. Bouchard-Hall himself? Otherwise, to whom do racers lodge complaints against officials?
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Old 06-25-16, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by echappist
Thanks for your input on this. By Derek, do you mean Mr. Bouchard-Hall himself? Otherwise, to whom do racers lodge complaints against officials?
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Old 06-25-16, 02:19 PM
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Yes, him. You can also write the head official in your LA. As for USAC, there used to be a National Technical Commission but now it looks like there is a Road Commission. I'd try that. Local first is always best.
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Old 06-25-16, 02:20 PM
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Chuck is good people. We are very fortunate to have him on this forum. He will answer your questions.
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