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Thread: Riis on Ullrich

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    Banned. 60cycle's Avatar
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    Riis on Ullrich

    "It's obvious Ullrich doesn't even like to race the bike, so I can't understand why he still wants to be a racer," Riis said. "It's a waste of talent. I believe in him less and less."




    damn!

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    Upgrading my engine DXchulo's Avatar
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    Is he saying Ullrich is faking the injury or just not returning quickly enough? Maybe he thinks Ullrich is a wimp for not riding through it? Either way, he certainly ripped him pretty hard.

    Normally I'd say it is a terrible move to give a guy motivation like that when his rider is a top contender (why give a guy extra motivation to beat you?), but Ullrich just doesn't seem like the kind of guy to get upset about it. Maybe that's part of the problem.

    Anyway, I thought Ullrich was in the best shape ever before the injury. I took the injury as a sign of bad luck, but maybe it's something else?
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    Lance basically has said the same thing in one of the Chasing Lance shows last year, saying how much he loved riding his bike 6 hours a day and that was part of his success, whereas he believed Jan was not fond of riding, but did it because he was good.

    Riis's comments are opposite of what Armstrong used to do each year by declaring Ullrich the favorite and T-Mobile the team to beat.

    BTW, how was the relationship between Riis and Ullrich during the time they were at Telekom in the mid-90s? Did they get along as teammates, were they friends off the bike, etc?

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    Senior Member squeegy200's Avatar
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    I don't believe they were friends

    Bjarne Riis won the 96 tour but in 97 was overshadowed by his junior teammate Jan Ullrich. Jan went on to win it after several bad events impeded the defending champion.

    The most memorable moment for me was watching video of Riis tossing his TT bike off the side of the road during one of the individual time trials.
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    i often thought ullrich should have joined CSC anyways... Riis would have worked wonders with him.Frankly, i think the big problem with Jan is that he doesn't race enough- he trains when he should be competing with the best. He should do stuff like Amstel gold or some of the early stage races.
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    Overacting because I can SpongeDad's Avatar
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    I bet if Lance and Bruyneel took Jan and beat the tar out of him they could get one more ounce of glory out of him (let's not forget, it's not like he sucks to begin with). He'd do it because he'd want LA's respect/admiration.
    Last edited by SpongeDad; 04-20-06 at 06:47 PM.
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    Ulrich in top form would rip the hell outta Basso or anyone else - flat out. If the motivation truly isn't there for him - well, thats a different matter. But as far as pure talent goes, even at his age now I don't think anyone has the motor of Ulrich.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmore
    Ulrich in top form would rip the hell outta Basso or anyone else - flat out. If the motivation truly isn't there for him - well, thats a different matter. But as far as pure talent goes, even at his age now I don't think anyone has the motor of Ulrich.
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    IMO, Ullrich's biggest weakness has always been he doesnt have the killer instinct or hunger for competition that most really successful guys have. A poor, tired, and hungry guy will eat up a guy like Ullrich 9 times out of 10, but not with sheer talent, but with heart and guts. You see this same deal in boxing all the time, a talented guy gets some early success then quickly loses that edge not long after that. Being good at road racing like most sports requires that you have enough tools and the motivation to overcome the tools you dont have in your skillset. Ullrich would have been an absolute animal on a track on a track bike, road racing........sure he's in the elite physically, mentally, he just isnt there. He doesnt have the motivation it takes to abuse yourself and get on the razor and be ready consistently before a GT. There is something that does go unsaid about the difference tween someone like Ullrich and Armstrong, from a numbers/time perspective, its a very small %, yet people make it out to be HUGE, it isnt. What Armstrong does have is he's happiest not just beating you, but dominating you and making sure you know he's doing it, Ullrich isnt that way, and it shows. Then again, off the course and in private life, Armstrong pays for it cause he cant turn it off.

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    Overacting because I can SpongeDad's Avatar
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    In all fairness, Lance also had a much more disciplined team riding for him. I'm not convinced that if you swapped Lance and Jan for those 7 years, Lance would still have 7 wins.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpongeDad
    I bet if Lance and Bruyneel took Jan and beat the tar out of him they could get one more ounce of glory out of him (let's not forget, it's not like he sucks to begin with). He'd do it because he'd want LA's respect/admiration.
    Jan has always resisted change. Godefroot could not get him to alter any of his routines or motivate him to excel beyond his comfort zone

    The most competitive Jan had ever been since his 97 tour win was when he was dumped by T-mobile. Bianchi took him and allowed him any resource he thought necessary to win the TDF. But he is still the darling of T-mobile sponsors and was soon allowed to return. He quickly abandoned Bianchi and went back to his comfort zone where he has languished ever since. Some would argue but I think Godefroot quit in disgust. Jan's influence with team sponsors allowed him to cicumvent management decisions keep whomever he wanted on staff. Now Jan has circled his wagons even more closely promoting his longtime trainer Rudy Pevanage to a more influential position. His older brother is still the senior team mechanic.

    But he still trains, races, eats, sleeps, and goes whereever he pleases. He's a media darling in Germany and sponsors know it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedex
    IMO, Ullrich's biggest weakness has always been he doesnt have the killer instinct or hunger for competition that most really successful guys have. A poor, tired, and hungry guy will eat up a guy like Ullrich 9 times out of 10, but not with sheer talent, but with heart and guts. You see this same deal in boxing all the time, a talented guy gets some early success then quickly loses that edge not long after that. Being good at road racing like most sports requires that you have enough tools and the motivation to overcome the tools you dont have in your skillset. Ullrich would have been an absolute animal on a track on a track bike, road racing........sure he's in the elite physically, mentally, he just isnt there. He doesnt have the motivation it takes to abuse yourself and get on the razor and be ready consistently before a GT. There is something that does go unsaid about the difference tween someone like Ullrich and Armstrong, from a numbers/time perspective, its a very small %, yet people make it out to be HUGE, it isnt. What Armstrong does have is he's happiest not just beating you, but dominating you and making sure you know he's doing it, Ullrich isnt that way, and it shows. Then again, off the course and in private life, Armstrong pays for it cause he cant turn it off.
    +1
    Ulrich ain't got, what Lance got: "The Eye of the Tiger", the killer instinct.

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    I don't know the guy all that well but if other riders have to give 110% and Jan gives 90% to be at the same level but he won't give any more because he's comfortable there and doesn't like beating himself up, then that's a huge waste.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpongeDad
    In all fairness, Lance also had a much more disciplined team riding for him. I'm not convinced that if you swapped Lance and Jan for those 7 years, Lance would still have 7 wins.
    Thats quite valid methinks. Alot of that is Ullrich's own doing though too. Postal/Disco doesnt show up with a sprinter on the squad, and it stacks the deck to do one thing and one thing only, pull the GC around and keep him out of the wind, let him do his thing on the climbing finishes and time trials.

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    Feed me your soul! Jakey's Avatar
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    Thats not Jan, thats his brother in the pic.
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    Retired Pro Rider/DS waltergodefroot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squeegy200
    He quickly abandoned Bianchi and went back to his comfort zone where he has languished ever since.
    So you consider finishing on the podium of the TDF "languishing"?

    For the recumbent riding pundits out there, Riis's palmares:

    Bjarne Riis
    1989 1 stage, Giro d'Italia
    1993 1 stage, Tour de France
    1 stage, Giro d'Italia
    1994 1 stage, Tour de France
    1996 Tour de France
    2 stages, Tour de France
    1997 Amstel Gold Race


    Ulrich's palmares:

    2005 T-Mobile Team
    Victories STAGE 8 IN DEUTSCHLAND TOUR (PT) - 30 km (ITT) - 22 August
    STAGE 2 IN TOUR DE SUISSE (PT) - 36 km (ITT) - 12 June


    No. 2 Deutschland Tour (PT) - 1520 km - 15-23 August
    GP Kanton Aargau (1.HC) - 196 km - 5 June

    Stage 20 in Tour de France (PT) - 55 km (ITT) - 23 July


    No. 3 Tour de France (PT) - 3610 km - 2-24 July
    Tour de Suisse (PT) - 1350 km - 11-19 June
    Stage 4 in Deutschland Tour (PT) - 175 km - 18 August


    No. 4 The ProTour

    Stage 14 in Tour de France (PT) - 220.5 km - 16 July


    No. 5 GP Schwarzwald (1.1) - 162.4 km - 4 June


    No. 10 GP Ouest France-Plouay (PT) - 226 km - 28 August
    Circuit de la Sarthe (2.1) - 675 km - 5-8 April


    No. 12 HEW-Cyclassics-Cup (PT) - 250.5 km - 31 July


    No. 18 Volta a Catalunya (PT) - 930 km - 16-22 May



    2004 T-Mobile Team
    Victories TOUR DE SUISSE (2.HC) - 1340 km - 12-20 June
    COPPA SABATINI (1.2) - 197.7 km - 23 September

    THE POINTS COMPETITION IN TOUR DE SUISSE (2.HC) - 1340 km - 12-20 June

    STAGE 1 IN TOUR DE SUISSE (2.HC) - 176 km - 12 June
    STAGE 9 IN TOUR DE SUISSE (2.HC) - 25.6 km (ITT) - 20 June


    No. 2 Stage 16 in Tour de France (GT) - 15.5 km (ITT) - 21 July
    Stage 19 in Tour de France (GT) - 55 km (ITT) - 24 July
    Stage 1 in Deutschland Tour (2.2) - 23 km (ITT) - 31 May


    No. 3 Giro del Lazio (1.HC) - 196 km - 18 September

    Stage 15 in Tour de France (GT) - 180 km - 20 July
    Stage 17 in Tour de France (GT) - 204.5 km - 17 July


    No. 4 Tour de France (GT) - 3390 km - 3-25 July


    No. 5 Giro dell'Emilia (1.1) - 196 km - 25 September
    Rund um die Hainleite (1.3) - 183.8 km - 29 May


    No. 7 The Olympics - Individual Time Trial - 48 km - 18 August
    Deutschland Tour (2.2) - 1105 km - 31 May-6 June



    2003 Team Bianchi
    Coast
    Victories RUND UM KÖLN (1.2) - 202 km - 21 April

    STAGE 12 IN TOUR DE FRANCE (GT) - 47 km (ITT) - 18 July


    No. 2 Tour de France (GT) - 3430 km - 5-27 July
    Meisterschaft von Zürich (WC) - 236.6 km - 17 August

    Stage 13 in Tour de France (GT) - 197.5 km - 19 July
    Stage 6 in Tour de Suisse (2.HC) - 135 km - 22 June
    Stage 6 in Deutschland Tour (2.2) - 40.7 km (ITT) - 8 June


    No. 3 HEW Cyclassics (WC) - 253.2 km - 3 August

    Stage 15 in Tour de France (GT) - 159.5 km - 21 July
    Stage 8 in Tour de Suisse (2.HC) - 33 km (ITT) - 24 June


    No. 4 The Prologue in Tour de France (GT) - 6.5 km (ITT) - 5 July
    Stage 19 in Tour de France (GT) - 49 km (ITT) - 26 July


    No. 5 Deutschland Tour (2.2) - 1180 km - 3-9 June
    Rund um die Nürnberger Altstadt (1.3) - 180 km - 31 August
    Sparkassen Giro Bochum (1.3) - 177.6 km - 10 August

    Stage 9 in Tour de France (GT) - 184.5 km - 14 July


    No. 6 GP Gippingen (1.1) - 196 km - 15 June


    No. 7 Tour de Suisse (2.HC) - 1445 km - 16-25 June


    Miscellaneous He will ride for the Telekom team (T-Mobile) next season. (source: cyclingnews.com)



    2002 Team Telekom
    No. 3 The German Championship - 207.5 km - 30 June


    Miscellaneous In the beginning of May, he ran into a bicycle rack with his Porsche. He was intoxicated after having a lot of wine before driving in his car. He had his driving license confiscated.
    In the end of May he underwent an operation to his right knee. The knee problems has prevented him from riding this spring.
    On June 12 he was tested positive for amphetamines in an out of competition control. He explained that he had taken amphetamines when he visited a discotheque.
    In the end of July the German Cycling Federation suspended him for six months due to the positive drug test.
    He was also suspended by the Telekom team without payment.
    He will probably not be riding for Telekom next season.



    2001 Team Deutsche Telekom
    Victories THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP - INDIVIDUAL TIME TRIAL - 38.7 km - 11 October
    THE GERMAN CHAMPIONSHIP - 216 km - 1 July
    GIRO D'EMILIA (1.1) - 199 km - 29 September
    VERSATEL-CLASSIC (1.4) - 112 km - 12 August

    STAGE 3 IN GIRO DELLA PROVINCIA DI LUCCA (2.3) - 164 km - 4 October
    STAGE 1 IN HESSEN RUNDFAHRT (2.4) - 160.5 km - 5 September


    No. 2 Tour de France (GT) - 3450 km - 7-29 July
    Meisterschaft von Zürich (WC) - 248.4 km - 26 August
    Coppa Agostoni (1.2) - 198 km - 22 August

    The Mountains Competition in Tour de France (GT) - 3450 km - 7-29 July

    Stage 10 in Tour de France (GT) - 209 km - 17 July
    Stage 11 in Tour de France (GT) - 32 km (ITT) - 18 July
    Stage 13 in Tour de France (GT) - 194 km - 21 July


    No. 3 Stage 14 in Tour de France (GT) - 141.5 km - 22 July
    Stage 18 in Tour de France (GT) - 61 km (ITT) - 27 July
    Stage 7 in Giro d'Italia (GT) - 239 km - 26 May
    Stage 17 in Giro d'Italia (GT) - 119 km - 6 June


    No. 4 Luk-Cup Bühl (1.3) - 192 km - 5 August

    The prologue in Tour de France (GT) - 8.2 km (ITT) - 7 July
    Stage 12 in Tour de France (GT) - 166 km - 20 July


    No. 5 EnBW GP (1.2) - with Andreas Klöden - 72 km - 4 August


    No. 13 The World Championship - 254.1 km - 14 October


    Miscellaneous In May he renewed his contract with Telekom. He will stay with the team until the end of 2003.



    2000 Team Deutsche Telekom
    Victories THE OLYMPICS
    COPPA AGOSTONI (1.2)


    No. 2 Tour de France
    The Olympics - individual time trial
    Meisterschaft von Zürich (WC)
    Luk Cup Bühl (1.3)

    Stage 16 in Tour de France
    Stage 19 in Tour de France (ITT)


    No. 3 Stage 7 in Vuelta a España
    Stage 5 in Tour de Suisse (ITT) (2.HC)


    No. 4 The German Championship
    Tre Valle Varesine (1.1)

    Stage 1 in Tour de France (ITT)
    Stage 12 in Tour de France


    No. 5 Tour de Suisse (2.HC)
    Breitling Grand Prix (1.2) - with Andreas Klöden



    1999 Team Deutsche Telekom - ARD
    Victories THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP - INDIVIDUAL TIME TRIAL
    VUELTA A ESPAÑA

    STAGE 5 IN VUELTA A ESPAÑA
    STAGE 20 IN VUELTA A ESPAÑA (ITT)


    No. 2 Stage 6 in Vuelta a España (ITT)


    No. 3 Milano - Torino (1.1)


    No. 4 The Points Competition in Vuelta a España


    No. 5 Stage 13 in Vuelta a España


    No. 7 Ronde van Nederland (2.1)


    No. 8 The World Championship



    1998 Team Deutsche Telekom
    Victories RUND UM BERLIN (1.5)
    RUND UM DIE NÜRNBERGER ALTSTADT (1.5)

    THE UNDER-25 COMPETITION IN TOUR DE FRANCE

    STAGE 7 IN TOUR DE FRANCE (ITT)
    STAGE 16 IN TOUR DE FRANCE
    STAGE 20 IN TOUR DE FRANCE (ITT)


    No. 2 Tour de France
    The German Championship
    Grand Prix Breitling (1.2) - with Rolf Aldag

    Stage 4.b. in Trofeo Castilla y Leon (ITT) (2.4)


    No. 3 Trofeo Castilla y Leon (2.4)

    Stage 1 in Tour de Suisse (ITT) (2.HC)
    Stage 9 in Tour de Suisse (ITT) (2.HC)
    Stage 6 in Ronde van Nederland (2.1)


    No. 4 Route du Sud (2.3)


    No. 5 Ronde van Nederland (2.1)


    No. 9 HEW-Cyclassics Cup (WC)


    No. 10 Tour de Suisse (2.HC)


    Miscellaneous No. 2 on the UCI Ranking, 1 January



    1997 Team Deutsche Telekom
    Victories TOUR DE FRANCE
    THE GERMAN CHAMPIONSHIP
    LUK-CUP-BÜHL (1.4)
    HEW CYCLASSICS (1.5)

    THE UNDER-25 COMPETITION IN TOUR DE FRANCE
    THE YOUNG RIDER COMPETITION IN RONDE VAN NEDERLAND (2.1)
    THE WARO SPRINT COMPETITION IN TOUR DE SUISSE (2.1)
    THE MOUNTAIN COMPETITION IN VUELTA A ARAGON (2.3)

    STAGE 10 IN TOUR DE FRANCE
    STAGE 12 IN TOUR DE FRANCE (ITT)
    STAGE 4 IN TOUR DE SUISSE (2.1)


    No. 2 The Mountain Competition in Tour de France
    Grand Prix Schweiz (WC)

    The prologue in Tour de France
    Stage 13 in Tour de France
    Stage 14 in Tour de France
    Stage 20 in Tour de France (ITT)
    Stage 5 in Tour de Suisse (ITT) (2.1)
    Stage 9 in Tour de Suisse (2.1)


    No. 3 Tour de Suisse (2.1)
    Ronde van Nederland (2.1)
    Breitling Grand Prix (1.2) - with Rolf Aldag

    Stage 15 in Tour de France
    Stage 4 in Ronde van Nederland (ITT)


    No. 4 Stage 9 in Tour de France


    No. 5 Grand Prix Primavera (1.3)


    No. 7 Classique des Alpes (1.1)


    No. 9 Rund um den Henninger Turm (1.1)
    Vuelta a Aragon (2.3)



    1996 Team Deutsche Telekom
    Victories REGIO TOUR (2.4)

    THE UNDER-25 COMPETITION IN TOUR DE FRANCE

    STAGE 20 IN TOUR DE FRANCE (ITT)
    STAGE 3A IN REGIO TOUR (2.4)


    No. 2 Tour de France
    The German Championship

    Stage 7 in Tour de Suisse (2.1)
    The prologue in Regio Tour (2.4)
    Stage 1 in Regio Tour (2.4)
    Stage 2 in Regio Tour (2.4)


    No. 3 Grand Prix Telekom (with Bjarne Riis) (1.2)


    No. 4 Grand Prix Eddy Merckx (1.2)

    Stage 17 in Tour de France


    No. 11 Grand Prix Schweiz (WC)


    No. 15 San Sebastian - San Sebastian (WC)



    1995 Team Deutsche Telekom
    Victories THE GERMAN CHAMPIONSHIP - INDIVIDUAL TIME TRIAL


    No. 2 Tour du Limousin (2.3)

    Stage 1 in Tour du Limousin (2.3)
    Stage 2 in Hofbrau Cup (2.4)


    No. 3 Hofbräu Cup (2.4)

    Stage 5 in Tour de Suisse (2.1)


    No. 4 The German Championship
    Villafranca de Ordizia (1.3)

    Nice resume for a "media darling". I guess Riis just sounds like sour grapes to me.
    Last edited by waltergodefroot; 04-21-06 at 05:17 AM.
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    Senior Member classic1's Avatar
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    thunder, did you steal Walters bikeforums account?

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    Up on the Down Side CyLowe97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
    So you consider finishing on the podium of the TDF "languishing"?


    Ulrich's palmares:

    .....

    Nice resume for a "media darling". I guess Riis just sounds like sour grapes to me.

    No disputing Jan's palmares are incredible. I think the point is that he could have been absolutely in the same breath as Merckx and Anquitil if he had the overall killer instinct to squash the peloton every time he clipped in.

    As it is, he's a legend, but it's always for us 'recumbent pundits' (great term!) to imagine what could have been.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyLowe97
    BTW, how was the relationship between Riis and Ullrich during the time they were at Telekom in the mid-90s? Did they get along as teammates, were they friends off the bike, etc?
    Actually, I think Riis and Ullrich got along well. Riis essentially mentored Ullrich to his win. Ullrich has never been a good descender, and was terrible (by pro standards) back then. Riis actually had to lead him down the tougher descents to show Ullrich the line. I think Riis is dissapointed in Ullrich not living up to his potential. Riis has done a lot to ressurect careers (see e.g. Bobby Julich) It would be interesting if Ullrich ever road for CSC. Too bad that will likely never happen.

  20. #20
    Wher'd u Get That Jacket? flythebike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DXchulo
    Is he saying Ullrich is faking the injury or just not returning quickly enough? Maybe he thinks Ullrich is a wimp for not riding through it? Either way, he certainly ripped him pretty hard.
    This isn't really about the injury.

    Riis has a long history with Ullrich. He helped him win the 1997 tour when Riis was still a pro. He tried to get Ullrich under contract a few years ago, but didn't have the money to attract him.

    In my opinion, without Riis, Ullrich wouldn't have won the 1997 tour. Therefore, he has every right to rip him, and furthermore, I agree with him.
    WeBlog: http://flythebike.blogspot.com
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  21. #21
    Wher'd u Get That Jacket? flythebike's Avatar
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    Also, regarding Riis vs. Ullrich on their cycling careers, Riis was a respectable pro who spent a lot of time riding in the shadow of guys like Laurent Fignon in his heyday. Also he had Moreno Argentin on Ariostea with him. Don't forget Fignon won the 89 Giro so for Riis to win a stage there too is something to talk about. Certainly no one would mention Riis in the same breath with the Giants of the Road. But lets compare Tour wins. Each has one, and that is what counts most these days. For Riis to win the Tour he rode way over his talent, for Jan to have only won one Tour, indicates he hasn't fulfilled his potential.
    Last edited by flythebike; 04-21-06 at 08:27 AM.
    WeBlog: http://flythebike.blogspot.com
    "Then know, that I have little wealth to lose. A man I am, crossed with adversity; My riches are these poor habiliments, Of which if you should here disfurnish me, You take the sum and substance that I have." Shakespeare: The Two Gentlemen of Verona
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  22. #22
    dog = interval feltdude's Avatar
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    Nice resume for a "media darling". I guess Riis just sounds like sour grapes to me.
    If you're an overattached fan who can't be rational, why post? This has nothing to do about Riis vs. Ullrich's resume, it's about what Ullrich could do if he worked as hard as possible.
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  23. #23
    Retired Pro Rider/DS waltergodefroot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyLowe97
    No disputing Jan's palmares are incredible. I think the point is that he could have been absolutely in the same breath as Merckx and Anquitil if he had the overall killer instinct to squash the peloton every time he clipped in.
    But this is exactly the point, isn't it. A rider is not just a pedal stroke, a time trial time, or a finish placing. A rider is made up of many different aspects, including personality. That Jan is not as driven or obsessive as say a Hinault or Merckx is part of his complete makeup as a rider. Riis criticizes Jan for his failures, but himself fails to recognize that Jan has perhaps far exceeded what most riders may have achieved with the same personality type.

    Jan has had a superlative decade+ long pro career, which is roughly the length of most pro careers. His time as a pro is drawing to an end; this is the twilight of his time as a champion level rider. A decade of sacrifice, hard work, and suffering to be the best has paid off for him. The effort required to be even a low level pro is herculean. I won't begrudge him a few biscuits now.
    An American, Floyd Landis, cheated in the Tour de France and lost the race.
    A Brit, Tommy Simpson, cheated in the Tour de France and lost his life.


    Judging from the results, they did go back to sailing or golf.




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  24. #24
    works for truffles pigmode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
    A rider is made up of many different aspects, including personality.
    Exactly. Trying to determine an athletes "full potential" by seperating their faults and strengths is best left to TV commentators and magazine writers.

  25. #25
    Retired Pro Rider/DS waltergodefroot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by classic1
    thunder, did you steal Walters bikeforums account?
    Not. You'll know he stole my account when you need a dictionary, spell check program, and a copy of The Elements of Style to read my posts.
    An American, Floyd Landis, cheated in the Tour de France and lost the race.
    A Brit, Tommy Simpson, cheated in the Tour de France and lost his life.


    Judging from the results, they did go back to sailing or golf.




    "The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
    --- Richard Nixon

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