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Old 04-20-06, 02:33 PM   #1
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Riis on Ullrich

"It's obvious Ullrich doesn't even like to race the bike, so I can't understand why he still wants to be a racer," Riis said. "It's a waste of talent. I believe in him less and less."




damn!
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Old 04-20-06, 02:45 PM   #2
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Is he saying Ullrich is faking the injury or just not returning quickly enough? Maybe he thinks Ullrich is a wimp for not riding through it? Either way, he certainly ripped him pretty hard.

Normally I'd say it is a terrible move to give a guy motivation like that when his rider is a top contender (why give a guy extra motivation to beat you?), but Ullrich just doesn't seem like the kind of guy to get upset about it. Maybe that's part of the problem.

Anyway, I thought Ullrich was in the best shape ever before the injury. I took the injury as a sign of bad luck, but maybe it's something else?
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Old 04-20-06, 02:52 PM   #3
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Lance basically has said the same thing in one of the Chasing Lance shows last year, saying how much he loved riding his bike 6 hours a day and that was part of his success, whereas he believed Jan was not fond of riding, but did it because he was good.

Riis's comments are opposite of what Armstrong used to do each year by declaring Ullrich the favorite and T-Mobile the team to beat.

BTW, how was the relationship between Riis and Ullrich during the time they were at Telekom in the mid-90s? Did they get along as teammates, were they friends off the bike, etc?
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Old 04-20-06, 05:11 PM   #4
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I don't believe they were friends

Bjarne Riis won the 96 tour but in 97 was overshadowed by his junior teammate Jan Ullrich. Jan went on to win it after several bad events impeded the defending champion.

The most memorable moment for me was watching video of Riis tossing his TT bike off the side of the road during one of the individual time trials.
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Old 04-20-06, 05:39 PM   #5
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i often thought ullrich should have joined CSC anyways... Riis would have worked wonders with him.Frankly, i think the big problem with Jan is that he doesn't race enough- he trains when he should be competing with the best. He should do stuff like Amstel gold or some of the early stage races.
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Old 04-20-06, 06:08 PM   #6
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I bet if Lance and Bruyneel took Jan and beat the tar out of him they could get one more ounce of glory out of him (let's not forget, it's not like he sucks to begin with). He'd do it because he'd want LA's respect/admiration.
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Old 04-20-06, 06:16 PM   #7
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Ulrich in top form would rip the hell outta Basso or anyone else - flat out. If the motivation truly isn't there for him - well, thats a different matter. But as far as pure talent goes, even at his age now I don't think anyone has the motor of Ulrich.
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Old 04-20-06, 06:37 PM   #8
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Ulrich in top form would rip the hell outta Basso or anyone else - flat out. If the motivation truly isn't there for him - well, thats a different matter. But as far as pure talent goes, even at his age now I don't think anyone has the motor of Ulrich.
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Old 04-20-06, 06:52 PM   #9
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IMO, Ullrich's biggest weakness has always been he doesnt have the killer instinct or hunger for competition that most really successful guys have. A poor, tired, and hungry guy will eat up a guy like Ullrich 9 times out of 10, but not with sheer talent, but with heart and guts. You see this same deal in boxing all the time, a talented guy gets some early success then quickly loses that edge not long after that. Being good at road racing like most sports requires that you have enough tools and the motivation to overcome the tools you dont have in your skillset. Ullrich would have been an absolute animal on a track on a track bike, road racing........sure he's in the elite physically, mentally, he just isnt there. He doesnt have the motivation it takes to abuse yourself and get on the razor and be ready consistently before a GT. There is something that does go unsaid about the difference tween someone like Ullrich and Armstrong, from a numbers/time perspective, its a very small %, yet people make it out to be HUGE, it isnt. What Armstrong does have is he's happiest not just beating you, but dominating you and making sure you know he's doing it, Ullrich isnt that way, and it shows. Then again, off the course and in private life, Armstrong pays for it cause he cant turn it off.
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Old 04-20-06, 06:58 PM   #10
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In all fairness, Lance also had a much more disciplined team riding for him. I'm not convinced that if you swapped Lance and Jan for those 7 years, Lance would still have 7 wins.
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Old 04-20-06, 06:58 PM   #11
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I bet if Lance and Bruyneel took Jan and beat the tar out of him they could get one more ounce of glory out of him (let's not forget, it's not like he sucks to begin with). He'd do it because he'd want LA's respect/admiration.
Jan has always resisted change. Godefroot could not get him to alter any of his routines or motivate him to excel beyond his comfort zone

The most competitive Jan had ever been since his 97 tour win was when he was dumped by T-mobile. Bianchi took him and allowed him any resource he thought necessary to win the TDF. But he is still the darling of T-mobile sponsors and was soon allowed to return. He quickly abandoned Bianchi and went back to his comfort zone where he has languished ever since. Some would argue but I think Godefroot quit in disgust. Jan's influence with team sponsors allowed him to cicumvent management decisions keep whomever he wanted on staff. Now Jan has circled his wagons even more closely promoting his longtime trainer Rudy Pevanage to a more influential position. His older brother is still the senior team mechanic.

But he still trains, races, eats, sleeps, and goes whereever he pleases. He's a media darling in Germany and sponsors know it.
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Old 04-20-06, 07:44 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by pedex
IMO, Ullrich's biggest weakness has always been he doesnt have the killer instinct or hunger for competition that most really successful guys have. A poor, tired, and hungry guy will eat up a guy like Ullrich 9 times out of 10, but not with sheer talent, but with heart and guts. You see this same deal in boxing all the time, a talented guy gets some early success then quickly loses that edge not long after that. Being good at road racing like most sports requires that you have enough tools and the motivation to overcome the tools you dont have in your skillset. Ullrich would have been an absolute animal on a track on a track bike, road racing........sure he's in the elite physically, mentally, he just isnt there. He doesnt have the motivation it takes to abuse yourself and get on the razor and be ready consistently before a GT. There is something that does go unsaid about the difference tween someone like Ullrich and Armstrong, from a numbers/time perspective, its a very small %, yet people make it out to be HUGE, it isnt. What Armstrong does have is he's happiest not just beating you, but dominating you and making sure you know he's doing it, Ullrich isnt that way, and it shows. Then again, off the course and in private life, Armstrong pays for it cause he cant turn it off.
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Ulrich ain't got, what Lance got: "The Eye of the Tiger", the killer instinct.

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Old 04-20-06, 08:02 PM   #13
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I don't know the guy all that well but if other riders have to give 110% and Jan gives 90% to be at the same level but he won't give any more because he's comfortable there and doesn't like beating himself up, then that's a huge waste.
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Old 04-20-06, 08:07 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by SpongeDad
In all fairness, Lance also had a much more disciplined team riding for him. I'm not convinced that if you swapped Lance and Jan for those 7 years, Lance would still have 7 wins.
Thats quite valid methinks. Alot of that is Ullrich's own doing though too. Postal/Disco doesnt show up with a sprinter on the squad, and it stacks the deck to do one thing and one thing only, pull the GC around and keep him out of the wind, let him do his thing on the climbing finishes and time trials.
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Old 04-20-06, 09:48 PM   #15
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Thats not Jan, thats his brother in the pic.
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Old 04-21-06, 04:55 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by squeegy200
He quickly abandoned Bianchi and went back to his comfort zone where he has languished ever since.
So you consider finishing on the podium of the TDF "languishing"?

For the recumbent riding pundits out there, Riis's palmares:

Bjarne Riis
1989 1 stage, Giro d'Italia
1993 1 stage, Tour de France
1 stage, Giro d'Italia
1994 1 stage, Tour de France
1996 Tour de France
2 stages, Tour de France
1997 Amstel Gold Race


Ulrich's palmares:

2005 T-Mobile Team
Victories STAGE 8 IN DEUTSCHLAND TOUR (PT) - 30 km (ITT) - 22 August
STAGE 2 IN TOUR DE SUISSE (PT) - 36 km (ITT) - 12 June


No. 2 Deutschland Tour (PT) - 1520 km - 15-23 August
GP Kanton Aargau (1.HC) - 196 km - 5 June

Stage 20 in Tour de France (PT) - 55 km (ITT) - 23 July


No. 3 Tour de France (PT) - 3610 km - 2-24 July
Tour de Suisse (PT) - 1350 km - 11-19 June
Stage 4 in Deutschland Tour (PT) - 175 km - 18 August


No. 4 The ProTour

Stage 14 in Tour de France (PT) - 220.5 km - 16 July


No. 5 GP Schwarzwald (1.1) - 162.4 km - 4 June


No. 10 GP Ouest France-Plouay (PT) - 226 km - 28 August
Circuit de la Sarthe (2.1) - 675 km - 5-8 April


No. 12 HEW-Cyclassics-Cup (PT) - 250.5 km - 31 July


No. 18 Volta a Catalunya (PT) - 930 km - 16-22 May



2004 T-Mobile Team
Victories TOUR DE SUISSE (2.HC) - 1340 km - 12-20 June
COPPA SABATINI (1.2) - 197.7 km - 23 September

THE POINTS COMPETITION IN TOUR DE SUISSE (2.HC) - 1340 km - 12-20 June

STAGE 1 IN TOUR DE SUISSE (2.HC) - 176 km - 12 June
STAGE 9 IN TOUR DE SUISSE (2.HC) - 25.6 km (ITT) - 20 June


No. 2 Stage 16 in Tour de France (GT) - 15.5 km (ITT) - 21 July
Stage 19 in Tour de France (GT) - 55 km (ITT) - 24 July
Stage 1 in Deutschland Tour (2.2) - 23 km (ITT) - 31 May


No. 3 Giro del Lazio (1.HC) - 196 km - 18 September

Stage 15 in Tour de France (GT) - 180 km - 20 July
Stage 17 in Tour de France (GT) - 204.5 km - 17 July


No. 4 Tour de France (GT) - 3390 km - 3-25 July


No. 5 Giro dell'Emilia (1.1) - 196 km - 25 September
Rund um die Hainleite (1.3) - 183.8 km - 29 May


No. 7 The Olympics - Individual Time Trial - 48 km - 18 August
Deutschland Tour (2.2) - 1105 km - 31 May-6 June



2003 Team Bianchi
Coast
Victories RUND UM KÖLN (1.2) - 202 km - 21 April

STAGE 12 IN TOUR DE FRANCE (GT) - 47 km (ITT) - 18 July


No. 2 Tour de France (GT) - 3430 km - 5-27 July
Meisterschaft von Zürich (WC) - 236.6 km - 17 August

Stage 13 in Tour de France (GT) - 197.5 km - 19 July
Stage 6 in Tour de Suisse (2.HC) - 135 km - 22 June
Stage 6 in Deutschland Tour (2.2) - 40.7 km (ITT) - 8 June


No. 3 HEW Cyclassics (WC) - 253.2 km - 3 August

Stage 15 in Tour de France (GT) - 159.5 km - 21 July
Stage 8 in Tour de Suisse (2.HC) - 33 km (ITT) - 24 June


No. 4 The Prologue in Tour de France (GT) - 6.5 km (ITT) - 5 July
Stage 19 in Tour de France (GT) - 49 km (ITT) - 26 July


No. 5 Deutschland Tour (2.2) - 1180 km - 3-9 June
Rund um die Nürnberger Altstadt (1.3) - 180 km - 31 August
Sparkassen Giro Bochum (1.3) - 177.6 km - 10 August

Stage 9 in Tour de France (GT) - 184.5 km - 14 July


No. 6 GP Gippingen (1.1) - 196 km - 15 June


No. 7 Tour de Suisse (2.HC) - 1445 km - 16-25 June


Miscellaneous He will ride for the Telekom team (T-Mobile) next season. (source: cyclingnews.com)



2002 Team Telekom
No. 3 The German Championship - 207.5 km - 30 June


Miscellaneous In the beginning of May, he ran into a bicycle rack with his Porsche. He was intoxicated after having a lot of wine before driving in his car. He had his driving license confiscated.
In the end of May he underwent an operation to his right knee. The knee problems has prevented him from riding this spring.
On June 12 he was tested positive for amphetamines in an out of competition control. He explained that he had taken amphetamines when he visited a discotheque.
In the end of July the German Cycling Federation suspended him for six months due to the positive drug test.
He was also suspended by the Telekom team without payment.
He will probably not be riding for Telekom next season.



2001 Team Deutsche Telekom
Victories THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP - INDIVIDUAL TIME TRIAL - 38.7 km - 11 October
THE GERMAN CHAMPIONSHIP - 216 km - 1 July
GIRO D'EMILIA (1.1) - 199 km - 29 September
VERSATEL-CLASSIC (1.4) - 112 km - 12 August

STAGE 3 IN GIRO DELLA PROVINCIA DI LUCCA (2.3) - 164 km - 4 October
STAGE 1 IN HESSEN RUNDFAHRT (2.4) - 160.5 km - 5 September


No. 2 Tour de France (GT) - 3450 km - 7-29 July
Meisterschaft von Zürich (WC) - 248.4 km - 26 August
Coppa Agostoni (1.2) - 198 km - 22 August

The Mountains Competition in Tour de France (GT) - 3450 km - 7-29 July

Stage 10 in Tour de France (GT) - 209 km - 17 July
Stage 11 in Tour de France (GT) - 32 km (ITT) - 18 July
Stage 13 in Tour de France (GT) - 194 km - 21 July


No. 3 Stage 14 in Tour de France (GT) - 141.5 km - 22 July
Stage 18 in Tour de France (GT) - 61 km (ITT) - 27 July
Stage 7 in Giro d'Italia (GT) - 239 km - 26 May
Stage 17 in Giro d'Italia (GT) - 119 km - 6 June


No. 4 Luk-Cup Bühl (1.3) - 192 km - 5 August

The prologue in Tour de France (GT) - 8.2 km (ITT) - 7 July
Stage 12 in Tour de France (GT) - 166 km - 20 July


No. 5 EnBW GP (1.2) - with Andreas Klöden - 72 km - 4 August


No. 13 The World Championship - 254.1 km - 14 October


Miscellaneous In May he renewed his contract with Telekom. He will stay with the team until the end of 2003.



2000 Team Deutsche Telekom
Victories THE OLYMPICS
COPPA AGOSTONI (1.2)


No. 2 Tour de France
The Olympics - individual time trial
Meisterschaft von Zürich (WC)
Luk Cup Bühl (1.3)

Stage 16 in Tour de France
Stage 19 in Tour de France (ITT)


No. 3 Stage 7 in Vuelta a España
Stage 5 in Tour de Suisse (ITT) (2.HC)


No. 4 The German Championship
Tre Valle Varesine (1.1)

Stage 1 in Tour de France (ITT)
Stage 12 in Tour de France


No. 5 Tour de Suisse (2.HC)
Breitling Grand Prix (1.2) - with Andreas Klöden



1999 Team Deutsche Telekom - ARD
Victories THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP - INDIVIDUAL TIME TRIAL
VUELTA A ESPAÑA

STAGE 5 IN VUELTA A ESPAÑA
STAGE 20 IN VUELTA A ESPAÑA (ITT)


No. 2 Stage 6 in Vuelta a España (ITT)


No. 3 Milano - Torino (1.1)


No. 4 The Points Competition in Vuelta a España


No. 5 Stage 13 in Vuelta a España


No. 7 Ronde van Nederland (2.1)


No. 8 The World Championship



1998 Team Deutsche Telekom
Victories RUND UM BERLIN (1.5)
RUND UM DIE NÜRNBERGER ALTSTADT (1.5)

THE UNDER-25 COMPETITION IN TOUR DE FRANCE

STAGE 7 IN TOUR DE FRANCE (ITT)
STAGE 16 IN TOUR DE FRANCE
STAGE 20 IN TOUR DE FRANCE (ITT)


No. 2 Tour de France
The German Championship
Grand Prix Breitling (1.2) - with Rolf Aldag

Stage 4.b. in Trofeo Castilla y Leon (ITT) (2.4)


No. 3 Trofeo Castilla y Leon (2.4)

Stage 1 in Tour de Suisse (ITT) (2.HC)
Stage 9 in Tour de Suisse (ITT) (2.HC)
Stage 6 in Ronde van Nederland (2.1)


No. 4 Route du Sud (2.3)


No. 5 Ronde van Nederland (2.1)


No. 9 HEW-Cyclassics Cup (WC)


No. 10 Tour de Suisse (2.HC)


Miscellaneous No. 2 on the UCI Ranking, 1 January



1997 Team Deutsche Telekom
Victories TOUR DE FRANCE
THE GERMAN CHAMPIONSHIP
LUK-CUP-BÜHL (1.4)
HEW CYCLASSICS (1.5)

THE UNDER-25 COMPETITION IN TOUR DE FRANCE
THE YOUNG RIDER COMPETITION IN RONDE VAN NEDERLAND (2.1)
THE WARO SPRINT COMPETITION IN TOUR DE SUISSE (2.1)
THE MOUNTAIN COMPETITION IN VUELTA A ARAGON (2.3)

STAGE 10 IN TOUR DE FRANCE
STAGE 12 IN TOUR DE FRANCE (ITT)
STAGE 4 IN TOUR DE SUISSE (2.1)


No. 2 The Mountain Competition in Tour de France
Grand Prix Schweiz (WC)

The prologue in Tour de France
Stage 13 in Tour de France
Stage 14 in Tour de France
Stage 20 in Tour de France (ITT)
Stage 5 in Tour de Suisse (ITT) (2.1)
Stage 9 in Tour de Suisse (2.1)


No. 3 Tour de Suisse (2.1)
Ronde van Nederland (2.1)
Breitling Grand Prix (1.2) - with Rolf Aldag

Stage 15 in Tour de France
Stage 4 in Ronde van Nederland (ITT)


No. 4 Stage 9 in Tour de France


No. 5 Grand Prix Primavera (1.3)


No. 7 Classique des Alpes (1.1)


No. 9 Rund um den Henninger Turm (1.1)
Vuelta a Aragon (2.3)



1996 Team Deutsche Telekom
Victories REGIO TOUR (2.4)

THE UNDER-25 COMPETITION IN TOUR DE FRANCE

STAGE 20 IN TOUR DE FRANCE (ITT)
STAGE 3A IN REGIO TOUR (2.4)


No. 2 Tour de France
The German Championship

Stage 7 in Tour de Suisse (2.1)
The prologue in Regio Tour (2.4)
Stage 1 in Regio Tour (2.4)
Stage 2 in Regio Tour (2.4)


No. 3 Grand Prix Telekom (with Bjarne Riis) (1.2)


No. 4 Grand Prix Eddy Merckx (1.2)

Stage 17 in Tour de France


No. 11 Grand Prix Schweiz (WC)


No. 15 San Sebastian - San Sebastian (WC)



1995 Team Deutsche Telekom
Victories THE GERMAN CHAMPIONSHIP - INDIVIDUAL TIME TRIAL


No. 2 Tour du Limousin (2.3)

Stage 1 in Tour du Limousin (2.3)
Stage 2 in Hofbrau Cup (2.4)


No. 3 Hofbräu Cup (2.4)

Stage 5 in Tour de Suisse (2.1)


No. 4 The German Championship
Villafranca de Ordizia (1.3)

Nice resume for a "media darling". I guess Riis just sounds like sour grapes to me.

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Old 04-21-06, 05:40 AM   #17
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thunder, did you steal Walters bikeforums account?
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Old 04-21-06, 06:12 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
So you consider finishing on the podium of the TDF "languishing"?


Ulrich's palmares:

.....

Nice resume for a "media darling". I guess Riis just sounds like sour grapes to me.

No disputing Jan's palmares are incredible. I think the point is that he could have been absolutely in the same breath as Merckx and Anquitil if he had the overall killer instinct to squash the peloton every time he clipped in.

As it is, he's a legend, but it's always for us 'recumbent pundits' (great term!) to imagine what could have been.
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Old 04-21-06, 08:09 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by CyLowe97
BTW, how was the relationship between Riis and Ullrich during the time they were at Telekom in the mid-90s? Did they get along as teammates, were they friends off the bike, etc?
Actually, I think Riis and Ullrich got along well. Riis essentially mentored Ullrich to his win. Ullrich has never been a good descender, and was terrible (by pro standards) back then. Riis actually had to lead him down the tougher descents to show Ullrich the line. I think Riis is dissapointed in Ullrich not living up to his potential. Riis has done a lot to ressurect careers (see e.g. Bobby Julich) It would be interesting if Ullrich ever road for CSC. Too bad that will likely never happen.
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Old 04-21-06, 08:09 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by DXchulo
Is he saying Ullrich is faking the injury or just not returning quickly enough? Maybe he thinks Ullrich is a wimp for not riding through it? Either way, he certainly ripped him pretty hard.
This isn't really about the injury.

Riis has a long history with Ullrich. He helped him win the 1997 tour when Riis was still a pro. He tried to get Ullrich under contract a few years ago, but didn't have the money to attract him.

In my opinion, without Riis, Ullrich wouldn't have won the 1997 tour. Therefore, he has every right to rip him, and furthermore, I agree with him.
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Old 04-21-06, 08:21 AM   #21
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Also, regarding Riis vs. Ullrich on their cycling careers, Riis was a respectable pro who spent a lot of time riding in the shadow of guys like Laurent Fignon in his heyday. Also he had Moreno Argentin on Ariostea with him. Don't forget Fignon won the 89 Giro so for Riis to win a stage there too is something to talk about. Certainly no one would mention Riis in the same breath with the Giants of the Road. But lets compare Tour wins. Each has one, and that is what counts most these days. For Riis to win the Tour he rode way over his talent, for Jan to have only won one Tour, indicates he hasn't fulfilled his potential.

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Old 04-21-06, 08:53 AM   #22
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Nice resume for a "media darling". I guess Riis just sounds like sour grapes to me.
If you're an overattached fan who can't be rational, why post? This has nothing to do about Riis vs. Ullrich's resume, it's about what Ullrich could do if he worked as hard as possible.
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Old 04-21-06, 09:05 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by CyLowe97
No disputing Jan's palmares are incredible. I think the point is that he could have been absolutely in the same breath as Merckx and Anquitil if he had the overall killer instinct to squash the peloton every time he clipped in.
But this is exactly the point, isn't it. A rider is not just a pedal stroke, a time trial time, or a finish placing. A rider is made up of many different aspects, including personality. That Jan is not as driven or obsessive as say a Hinault or Merckx is part of his complete makeup as a rider. Riis criticizes Jan for his failures, but himself fails to recognize that Jan has perhaps far exceeded what most riders may have achieved with the same personality type.

Jan has had a superlative decade+ long pro career, which is roughly the length of most pro careers. His time as a pro is drawing to an end; this is the twilight of his time as a champion level rider. A decade of sacrifice, hard work, and suffering to be the best has paid off for him. The effort required to be even a low level pro is herculean. I won't begrudge him a few biscuits now.
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Old 04-21-06, 09:21 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
A rider is made up of many different aspects, including personality.
Exactly. Trying to determine an athletes "full potential" by seperating their faults and strengths is best left to TV commentators and magazine writers.
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Old 04-21-06, 09:28 AM   #25
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thunder, did you steal Walters bikeforums account?
Not. You'll know he stole my account when you need a dictionary, spell check program, and a copy of The Elements of Style to read my posts.
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