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  1. #1
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Where does Floyd stack up all time?

    A post in another thread suggests that Landis is the 4th most accomplished American bicycle racer. Obviously the complete book on Floyd is yet to be written, but I thought that was an interesting observation. Personally, I would put him 7th based upon performance to date. The 6 ahead:

    1) Armstrong.
    2) Major Taylor (dominated European competition overcoming tremendous obstacles)
    3) Greg Lemond.
    4) Andy Hampsten .(2 tours of Switzerland , 1 Giro, epic Giro stage win, 4th TDF, Alpe de Huez stage win in TDF, Tour of Romandy.)
    5) Tyler Hamilton (dauphine libere, LBL, Tour of Romandy, Stage wins Giro and TDF)
    6) Davis, the Cash register, Phinney ( most wins of any US rider with 300 wins, 2 TDF stages , first american road stage win in TDF, Coors Classic, 2nd in points competition TDF).

    Am I leaving anyone out?

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    RIDING CLEAN! Veloduo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    A post in another thread suggests that Landis is the 4th most accomplished American bicycle racer. Obviously the complete book on Floyd is yet to be written, but I thought that was an interesting observation. Personally, I would put him 7th based upon performance to date. The 6 ahead:

    1) Armstrong.
    2) Major Taylor (dominated European competition overcoming tremendous obstacles)
    3) Greg Lemond.
    4) Andy Hampsten .(2 tours of Switzerland , 1 Giro, epic Giro stage win, 4th TDF, Alpe de Huez stage win in TDF, Tour of Romandy.)
    5) Tyler Hamilton (dauphine libere, LBL, Tour of Romandy, Stage wins Giro and TDF)
    6) Davis, the Cash register, Phinney ( most wins of any US rider with 300 wins, 2 TDF stages , first american road stage win in TDF, Coors Classic, 2nd in points competition TDF).

    Am I leaving anyone out?
    After further review, I think you just about have it, although I might slot Lemond ahead of Major Taylor, based on what I'm not sure, but I completely geeked on TH. Floyd should be 7th and counting, although a TDF stage win pushes him ahead of Phinney on quality points. Hard to argue with your rankings.
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    based on performance...ok


    Floyd can be the strongest rider today, IMHO. given a good team, he can win the TDF

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    Oranges to Apples here

    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    A post in another thread suggests that Landis is the 4th most accomplished American bicycle racer. Obviously the complete book on Floyd is yet to be written, but I thought that was an interesting observation. Personally, I would put him 7th based upon performance to date. The 6 ahead:

    1) Armstrong.
    2) Major Taylor (dominated European competition overcoming tremendous obstacles)
    3) Greg Lemond.
    4) Andy Hampsten .(2 tours of Switzerland , 1 Giro, epic Giro stage win, 4th TDF, Alpe de Huez stage win in TDF, Tour of Romandy.)
    5) Tyler Hamilton (dauphine libere, LBL, Tour of Romandy, Stage wins Giro and TDF)
    6) Davis, the Cash register, Phinney ( most wins of any US rider with 300 wins, 2 TDF stages , first american road stage win in TDF, Coors Classic, 2nd in points competition TDF).

    Am I leaving anyone out?
    Seriously putting Taylor, Phinney, Lemond and Hampsten with Hamilton and Armstrong is a bit silly. Those four had to fight against nearly impossible odds for their wins. Lemond had a team that was not exactly 100% behind him. And Hampsten and Phinney were Americans in a European game. They didn't fit in at all, and were often attacked just so an American wouldn't win. Andy's Giro and Phinney's TdF wins were simply beyond compare. Think taking any D1 US road team out of the US, dropping them down in Italy and telling them to win the Giro or take multiple TdF stage wins.
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    HJR
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    I would put Julich ahead of Landis. Just two things Bobby has that Floyd doesn't are a podium in the TDF and a win at Paris-Nice.
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    RIDING CLEAN! Veloduo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HJR
    I would put Julich ahead of Landis. Just two things Bobby has that Floyd doesn't are a podium in the TDF and a win at Paris-Nice.
    Give you the podium in Paris, but this just in: FLOYD LANDIS WINS PARIS-NICE 2006!
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    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
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    I'd put hampsten and phinney above hamilton

  8. #8
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daneil
    Seriously putting Taylor, Phinney, Lemond and Hampsten with Hamilton and Armstrong is a bit silly. Those four had to fight against nearly impossible odds for their wins. Lemond had a team that was not exactly 100% behind him. And Hampsten and Phinney were Americans in a European game. They didn't fit in at all, and were often attacked just so an American wouldn't win. Andy's Giro and Phinney's TdF wins were simply beyond compare. Think taking any D1 US road team out of the US, dropping them down in Italy and telling them to win the Giro or take multiple TdF stage wins.
    Ok, I can see an argument for leapfrogging Phinney over Hamilton, but you can't seriously be contending that Armstrong isn't on the top?

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Well, this is a good list. Might as well complete it.

    1. Armstrong.
    2. Major Taylor (dominated European competition overcoming tremendous obstacles)
    3. Greg Lemond.
    4. Andy Hampsten .(2 tours of Switzerland , 1 Giro, epic Giro stage win, 4th TDF, Alpe de Huez stage win in TDF, Tour of Romandy.)
    5. Tyler Hamilton (dauphine libere, LBL, Tour of Romandy, Stage wins Giro and TDF)
    6. Davis, the Cash register, Phinney ( most wins of any US rider with 300 wins, 2 TDF stages , first american road stage win in TDF, Coors Classic, 2nd in points competition TDF).
    7. Floyd Landis (Paris-Nice, TdC, TdG, Volta ao Algarve)
    8. Bobby Julich (3rd TdF, Paris-Nice)
    9. Levi Leipheimer (Tour of Germany, 3rd Vuelta, 3rd Dauphine Libere)


    About right?
    Who is #10?

  10. #10
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    I think #10 has to be Hincapie. 2001 Ghent Wevelgem, Stage TDF, 2nd Paris Roubaix, key lieutenant in Armstrong's 7 wins. US Pro champion. I'm not sure who else you'd nominate, Chris Horner? David Zabirskie? Jeff Pierce?

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    Up on the Down Side CyLowe97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    I'm not sure who else you'd nominate, Chris Horner? David Zabirskie? Jeff Pierce?
    The fact that we're coming up with names says that this list is bound to change in the next few decades as more Americans become major players in the European peloton. DZ, Danielson, Saul Raisin (when he recovers... soon!), and others all have a chance at greatness. Finding out is why we follow their progress and victories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    Ok, I can see an argument for leapfrogging Phinney over Hamilton, but you can't seriously be contending that Armstrong isn't on the top?
    No but I'd definitely put Taylor on top. Don't want to turn this into a pro/con L.A. thread.
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    HJR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veloduo
    Give you the podium in Paris, but this just in: FLOYD LANDIS WINS PARIS-NICE 2006!
    A bit of a brainfart. But add Criterium International to Julich's resume.
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    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    Ok, I can see an argument for leapfrogging Phinney over Hamilton, but you can't seriously be contending that Armstrong isn't on the top?

    I think some question the race the TDF and everything else is just training seasons that Armstrong had. In some ways LeMond was a more rounded pro rider, hard rides in the classics, ect.

  15. #15
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Armstrong: 1992
    First Union Grand Prix
    GP Sanson
    Longsjo Classic (1 stage win)
    Thrift Drug Classic
    Vuelta La Riberia (overall, 3 stages)
    Trittico Premondiale (1 stage win)



    1993
    World Cycling Championship - World Cycling Champion
    CoreStates USPro Championship - United States National Cycling Champion
    Tour de France (Stage 8)
    Tour of America (overall)
    Vuelta Ciclista a Galega
    Trophee Laigueglia
    Tour du Pont (1 stage win)
    Tour of Sweden (1 stage win)
    Kmart West Virginia Classic (overall, 2 stage wins)
    Thrift Drug Classic
    US Pro Championship (and the $1,000,000 triple crowm)
    1994
    Thrift Drug Classic
    Tour du Pont (1 stage win)
    1995
    Tour de France (Stage 18)
    Clasica San Sebastian
    Paris-Nice (Stage 5)
    Tour du Pont (overall, 3 stage wins)
    Kmart West Virginia Classic (overall, 1 stage win)
    Tour of America (overall)
    1996
    Tour du Pont (overall, 5 stage wins)
    La Flèche Wallonne
    1998
    Rheinland-Pfalz Rundfahrt (overall)
    Tour de Luxembourg (overall, 1 stage win)
    Cascade Classic
    1999
    Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
    Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (ITT) (Prologue)
    Route du Sud (Stage 4)
    Circuit de la Sarthe (ITT) (Stage 4)
    2000
    Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win)
    GP des Nations
    GP Eddy Merckx
    Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (ITT) (Stage 3)
    Bronze medal in the 2000 Summer Olympics Individual Time Trial, Men
    2001
    Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
    Tour de Suisse (overall, 2 stage wins)
    2002
    Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
    Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (Stage 6)
    GP du Midi-Libre
    2003
    Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win, Team Time Trial)
    Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (overall, Stage 3 ITT)
    2004
    Tour de France (overall, 5 stage wins, Team Time Trial)
    Tour de Georgia (overall, 2 stage wins)
    Tour du Languedoc-Roussillon (Stage 5)
    Volta ao Algarve (ITT) (Stage 4)
    2005
    Tour de France (overall, 2 stage wins, Team Time Trial, Individual Time Trial)

    Lemond:

    1983 World Pro Road Race
    Dauphiné - Libéré
    Critérium des As
    Super Prestige Pernod Trophy
    1985 1 stage, Tour de France
    1986 Tour de France
    1 stage, Tour de France
    1 stage, Giro d'Italia
    Points competition, Tour of Switzerland
    1989 Tour de France
    3 stages, Tour de France
    World Pro Road Race
    1990 Tour de France


    The only thing Lemond has on Armstrong is 2 World Champioships to 1 for Armstrong, but Armstrong has 2 classics to zero for Lemond, so I think the all arounder argument fails.

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    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    Lemond is either #2 or #3.
    How can you possibly suggest that a guy who has 3x tours and 4x World Championships on his mantle isn't in the top three?

    I'd save a spot for Frankie Andreu near the top.
    I'd put Alexi Grewal over Jeff Pierce.

  17. #17
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    Perhaps Marshall Taylor belongs in a list all of his own.

    When counting palmares, sure - you could compare his numbers against modern pros; but he was primarily a solo track racer, competed in only a handful of organized road races, and acheived his mile records on a chainless bicycle. In the days before motorcycles, cars, and airplanes, he was the undisputed Fastest Man in the World.

    Then there is an 80-year gap in the list. His inclusion on the list makes the context inconsistent. Seems like comparing Wilbur Wright and Chuck Yeager. I say put him on top or take him out.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    Armstrong: 1992
    First Union Grand Prix
    GP Sanson
    Longsjo Classic (1 stage win)
    Thrift Drug Classic
    Vuelta La Riberia (overall, 3 stages)
    Trittico Premondiale (1 stage win)



    1993
    World Cycling Championship - World Cycling Champion
    CoreStates USPro Championship - United States National Cycling Champion
    Tour de France (Stage 8)
    Tour of America (overall)
    Vuelta Ciclista a Galega
    Trophee Laigueglia
    Tour du Pont (1 stage win)
    Tour of Sweden (1 stage win)
    Kmart West Virginia Classic (overall, 2 stage wins)
    Thrift Drug Classic
    US Pro Championship (and the $1,000,000 triple crowm)
    1994
    Thrift Drug Classic
    Tour du Pont (1 stage win)
    1995
    Tour de France (Stage 18)
    Clasica San Sebastian
    Paris-Nice (Stage 5)
    Tour du Pont (overall, 3 stage wins)
    Kmart West Virginia Classic (overall, 1 stage win)
    Tour of America (overall)
    1996
    Tour du Pont (overall, 5 stage wins)
    La Flèche Wallonne
    1998
    Rheinland-Pfalz Rundfahrt (overall)
    Tour de Luxembourg (overall, 1 stage win)
    Cascade Classic
    1999
    Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
    Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (ITT) (Prologue)
    Route du Sud (Stage 4)
    Circuit de la Sarthe (ITT) (Stage 4)
    2000
    Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win)
    GP des Nations
    GP Eddy Merckx
    Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (ITT) (Stage 3)
    Bronze medal in the 2000 Summer Olympics Individual Time Trial, Men
    2001
    Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
    Tour de Suisse (overall, 2 stage wins)
    2002
    Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
    Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (Stage 6)
    GP du Midi-Libre
    2003
    Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win, Team Time Trial)
    Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (overall, Stage 3 ITT)
    2004
    Tour de France (overall, 5 stage wins, Team Time Trial)
    Tour de Georgia (overall, 2 stage wins)
    Tour du Languedoc-Roussillon (Stage 5)
    Volta ao Algarve (ITT) (Stage 4)
    2005
    Tour de France (overall, 2 stage wins, Team Time Trial, Individual Time Trial)

    Lemond:

    1983 World Pro Road Race
    Dauphiné - Libéré
    Critérium des As
    Super Prestige Pernod Trophy
    1985 1 stage, Tour de France
    1986 Tour de France
    1 stage, Tour de France
    1 stage, Giro d'Italia
    Points competition, Tour of Switzerland
    1989 Tour de France
    3 stages, Tour de France
    World Pro Road Race
    1990 Tour de France


    The only thing Lemond has on Armstrong is 2 World Champioships to 1 for Armstrong, but Armstrong has 2 classics to zero for Lemond, so I think the all arounder argument fails.
    Uh the Super Prestige Pernod Trophy is a rather impressive piece of hardware that you say Lemond has and Armstrong does not. One has to win a few races over a season to get it.

  19. #19
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99
    Uh the Super Prestige Pernod Trophy is a rather impressive piece of hardware that you say Lemond has and Armstrong does not. One has to win a few races over a season to get it.
    Ok the 2 things Lemond has on Armstrong...

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    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Unless I missed it there are two that seem to be forgotten:

    Jonathon Boyer
    Willie Hamilton

    Both of not and of course Willie Hamilton did something no other American has done.

    Guess I could add a third that at least left some record in Europe, Chann McRae.

  21. #21
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    So wait, the KMart Classic and DuPont count for Armstrong but the DuPont and Coor Classic don't for LeMond??? Not to mention additionl TDF top 5's while riding for someone else. Im not saying his is necessarly better than LA on paper but at least be fair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo76
    So wait, the KMart Classic and DuPont count for Armstrong but the DuPont and Coor Classic don't for LeMond??? Not to mention additionl TDF top 5's while riding for someone else. Im not saying his is necessarly better than LA on paper but at least be fair.
    Thank you.

  23. #23
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    Lemond:

    1983 World Pro Road Race
    Dauphiné - Libéré
    Critérium des As
    Super Prestige Pernod Trophy
    1985 1 stage, Tour de France
    1986 Tour de France
    1 stage, Tour de France
    1 stage, Giro d'Italia
    Points competition, Tour of Switzerland
    1989 Tour de France
    3 stages, Tour de France
    World Pro Road Race
    1990 Tour de France


    The only thing Lemond has on Armstrong is 2 World Champioships to 1 for Armstrong, but Armstrong has 2 classics to zero for Lemond, so I think the all arounder argument fails.

    Ya know the more I read this the more I realize how misguided this is, p***ing me off a little. Take 85, 1 stage in the TDF??? How about winning The Coors, 2nd at Worlds, 2nd in the TDF (because he wasnt allowed to win), 3rd in the Giro, 4th in Paris Roubaix, 4th Het Volk?? You paint a mind blowing year as if it was highlighted by just a stage win. Come on.

  24. #24
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    The problem is I had to lift from 2 different sources becausethe source for Lemond doesn't cover the last 4 years for Armstrong. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/veloarc...ders/index.htm, and Wikipedia which I used for Armstrong doesn't list Lemond's palmares in detail. Thus I didn't capture Lemond's domestic record. Anyone who cares that wants to spend the time to get a more complete listing of both of their accomplishments is welcome. And Armstrong has a few seconds and thirds himself.

    However, the point remains that Armstrong, particularly early in his career accomplished more than just the TDF. When you compare their European record, Lemond may have competed in more races over the season, and won the equivalent of what's now the Pro Tour, but Lemond's non TDF record is not that far ahead, of Armstrong particularly in light of ZERO classic wins. And in the TDF, there simply is no comparison between the 2, in numbers of wins, number of stages, dominance, or consistency.
    I liked Lemond (particularly before he started being a bitter old guy.) but you really have to stretch to make a straight faced argument that he is the most accomplished american cyclist ever.

  25. #25
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    The problem is I had to lift from 2 different sources becausethe source for Lemond doesn't cover the last 4 years for Armstrong. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/veloarc...ders/index.htm, and Wikipedia which I used for Armstrong doesn't list Lemond's palmares in detail. Thus I didn't capture Lemond's domestic record. Anyone who cares that wants to spend the time to get a more complete listing of both of their accomplishments is welcome. And Armstrong has a few seconds and thirds himself.

    However, the point remains that Armstrong, particularly early in his career accomplished more than just the TDF. When you compare their European record, Lemond may have competed in more races over the season, and won the equivalent of what's now the Pro Tour, but Lemond's non TDF record is not that far ahead, of Armstrong particularly in light of ZERO classic wins. And in the TDF, there simply is no comparison between the 2, in numbers of wins, number of stages, dominance, or consistency.
    I liked Lemond (particularly before he started being a bitter old guy.) but you really have to stretch to make a straight faced argument that he is the most accomplished american cyclist ever.
    I would rather stretch an opinion than be misleading. Factor in not just Classics but Giro, or Tour of Switzerland. Look at top 5's in words. I think in particular 84 through 86 Lemond may have been more dominant top to bottom than Armstrong ever was in a given year, not all wins but right there in many significant races. Best source I could find for Lemond: http://biciclopedia.com/palmares/ind...d=73&Itemid=30

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