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  1. #1
    Rocket Richard
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    Was my team-mate greedy?

    This was a an omnium format race. I'll begin with my star mate, the 140 lb. track runnin' / mountain climin' billy goat. Needless to say, he is our climber on the team who we like to setup and keep fresh for hilly races; esp. this one - a 1 mile 8% grade to the top. The other mates on the team agreed to keep him fresh and sure enough he blasted everyone to the finish - 1st place. I ended up 8th - but I am the sprinter on the team 5'8" 170 pounds. Our plan for the crit was to rotate 3 guys off the front at a blistering pace while standing and shooting out of every corner. I was to get in the rotation every other time to help with the pain. Well, everyone knows that I am the guy to lead out; by the time the bell lap came around it was myself, the climber (my team mate) and another rider from another team. It was a perfect setup. I told my guy to keep the pace high to discourage the other guy from coming around. Amazingly, my buddy asks me to take a pull on the last lap 2 corners before the end. He was not winded or tired at all. I was like,,,,WHAT??? Well, when he slowed down to make me get in front the other guy takes us in the last turn with an 1/8 mile sprint. I was 3rd going into the last corner and took off like a bat outta hell. As I blew my buddy's doors off, I gave him a disgusted look as he fell back. I needed another 5 yards and it would have been money! My mate got 1st in the omnium and I got 3rd. What should I have done differently?
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  2. #2
    . botto's Avatar
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    i'm tired and gave up reading all the blah blAH BLAH yada yaDA YADA you wrote.

    who's the guy who's the fat guy who won the sprint, and why are 2 of the 3 guys looking at the ground?

  3. #3
    Rocket Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto
    i'm tired and gave up reading all the blah blAH BLAH yada yaDA YADA you wrote.

    who's the guy who's the fat guy who won the sprint, and why are 2 of the 3 guys looking at the ground?
    I wish this forum had a filter which would only allow replies with a small amount of intellegent content to get through, therefore eliminating replies like I just read. BTW, the look at the ground is a normal reaction the head goes through when you thrust your bike forward, but I guess someone of your caliper already knew that. The fat guy, used to be a fullback in college BTW; exremely fast for short distances.


  4. #4
    Slow'n'Aero DrWJODonnell's Avatar
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    I am guessing that perhaps a stern discussion of roles prior to the race (in case it was assumed rather than stated on your part). Also, no matter how upset you are, even that look back at your 'mate could have cost you. Sounds like he was either gassed or was looking to place (got greedy). I might ask him what happened at the end and reiterate the roles that each of you have.

  5. #5
    Senior Member reef58's Avatar
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    Have you guys discussed this in advance? It the rules are known, and he didn't abide by them I would have a talk.

    Richard

  6. #6
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    Maybe you should have waited or sling shot off the lead rider.

    S/F,
    CEYA!

  7. #7
    Rocket Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceya
    Maybe you should have waited or sling shot off the lead rider.

    S/F,
    CEYA!
    Well, the thing is the final turn was really tight, definitely a single file and he dang near caused an accident sneaking in. But it was the split second he needed when my supposed lead out waited for me to take the lead. If you look in the background of the pic, you can see the road we turned on from, not very far at all from the road to the finish line. Oh well, maybe next time.

  8. #8
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Sounds like that "fat" guy, riding solo, outmaneuvered the two of you riding as a team. Good for him, he deserves the win.

  9. #9
    Dharma Dog lhbernhardt's Avatar
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    I agree with the team review of the roles. But the big question I would have is why have you got a 140 lb climbing specialist as your leadout man? I'm not surprised that he packed. But I would also agree with the observation that you lost the sprint when you looked over at him. It's not the error that loses the race, it's how you manage the error. Yes, an error was made, but if you had reacted in a positive manner, you probably would have won. Example:

    Climber: "Take a pull!"
    You: "Ftoj3485hj! PIN IT! NOW, M*F*!!!"
    Sort of like when Udo Bolts yelled at Jan, "Qual dich, du sau!"

    And if he still pulls over, you need to switch to Plan B. You did have a Plan B, didn't you?

    Oh, and one more thang: if you're racing as a team, sacrificing for each other, then it shouldn't really matter who finishes 1st or 3rd. You did split the prizes evenly, didn't you?

    - L.

  10. #10
    Rocket Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhbernhardt
    I agree with the team review of the roles. But the big question I would have is why have you got a 140 lb climbing specialist as your leadout man? I'm not surprised that he packed. But I would also agree with the observation that you lost the sprint when you looked over at him. It's not the error that loses the race, it's how you manage the error. Yes, an error was made, but if you had reacted in a positive manner, you probably would have won. Example:

    Climber: "Take a pull!"
    You: "Ftoj3485hj! PIN IT! NOW, M*F*!!!"
    Sort of like when Udo Bolts yelled at Jan, "Qual dich, du sau!"

    And if he still pulls over, you need to switch to Plan B. You did have a Plan B, didn't you?

    Oh, and one more thang: if you're racing as a team, sacrificing for each other, then it shouldn't really matter who finishes 1st or 3rd. You did split the prizes evenly, didn't you?

    - L.
    First, yes the guy did an awesome manuver in the last turn, I'll give him credit, but this only happened because my buddy let up to make me pull.
    2nd, the only reason he was my leadout was because we were the only ones left from the breakaway.
    Let's see...oh ya, I didn't slow at all to give him my look of dismay, there just wasn't much asphalt after the final turn.
    Winnings go 50% to the team / 50% to the rider and the 50% that the rider gets is evenly split amongst all members in that race; which happened to be initiated by me in the beginning of the season to help promote a team and not an individual effort.
    In all honesty, I ride with this guy all the time and I know what he is capable of. Plain and simple, he backed off to be fresh for the sprint. I am just trying to diplomatically approach him and let him know it's not all about individuality. We could have had two 1st place finishes saturday and sunday but we only got one. I really go out of my way to expose others strong points on the team. I'll gladly lead out anyone on my team, but no one can pass me, which i proven time and time again. We have lots of crits in our circuit which is why I chose to specialize in sprinting. Maybe I should involve our team manager in our pre-race game plan to help re-affirm our roles. The guy who pays the bills has the deepset voice, you know what I mean...LOL

    Thank all of you for your input; ya'll have a Good Memorial weekend!

  11. #11
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    i understand your stratetgy as a team for individual races. But your team mate finsihed first in the Omnium. SOunds like there was a reasonable team strategy to support him in the crit to preserve his ominium position. May have been some lack of communication, and some assumptions that weren't shared. And as I recall, your a Cat 5. You're lucky to pull off anything resembling team tactics in your average Cat 5 race.

  12. #12
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    hey glen,

    I got a couple of points for you.

    1. try to remember that it is entirely possible for him to be hurting more than you thought he was. the guy put in alot of effort on saturday in the climbs, not just the last one. The pace was high from the very beginning and I can't blame anyone for getting tired.

    2. We decided to control the race and attack in every corner in hopes to shell everyone in the field. There was no discussion as to who would be led out IF there was anyone else left at the finish. I understand that you have the best sprint, but it wasn't set in stone that you would get the lead out. I do remember Ryan saying several time that weekend that his sprinting felt very strong and that his sustained power wasn't quite there.

    3. It's possible that he just didn't want to get cought up in a fight with that other guy coming out of the corner for safety reasons. He was in the points lead and a crash would have been bad.

    4. It was only a cat 5 race and that makes it o.k. to make mistakes. Next time we know what to talk about before hand. and you could always just call him and ask him what was going through his head. I doubt it was greed.

    Mike

  13. #13
    Rocket Richard
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    I was wondering when you would come on for some feedback / input? I know you're on here a lot. This is where I do most of my learning. It seems mutual from everyone that we should have communicated a little more. We'll know next time. See you in MS!

  14. #14
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    yeah, i havn't been on in awhile. I just finished moving and unpacking, and got the cable modem online last night. I put in for an upgrade on saturday so we'll see how that works out. looking forward to the next one.

  15. #15
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket Richard
    What should I have done differently?
    Thrown your bottle at your teammate before crossing the line? Your teammate must not have been winded to have been that close at the end of the sprint, though.

    Really, there's not too much you could have done at that point. I would have passed my teammate but not pulled, then try to grab the leader's wheel as he goes by. Suck his wheel to the finish, even if it means slowing down to a stand still ala match sprint style (I have seen track stands in crits before, you just have to watch for the pack like you're in a chicken race... a whole new tactic trackies don't deal with). Your biggest error was arguing with your teammate, as that was the window your opponent was looking for and he took it! The moment your mate stops working with you, focus on the opponent and treat it like the one-on-one it has now become.

    I'm glad that when I was racing I had teammates who were willing to burnout 500m from the finish if it meant pulling me to victory. It was usually the other way around, but when they recognized my need, they were there.

    Love the use of the crosswalk as the finish btw. And the road signs for banners.

  16. #16
    cmh
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    If your climber buddy was going to win the Omnium even with a 3rd place finish he should have led you out. It sounds like this was the case, so it was his bad. Maybe there wasn't time in the last lap to come to this conclusion?

    If there was doubt and you thought he might need the 2nd place to win the overall, you should have led him out to try to get him the win, or just given him 2nd place.

    At any rate, you should try to discuss this type of situation before the race, and if not, try to get it worked out once the 3 of you were on your own.

    Nice job on 2nd place, btw.

  17. #17
    Eat. Lift. Ride. Drink. Sinfield's Avatar
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    It's racing. There comes a certain time when it's all or nothing, fastest guy takes all. You're not Team Discovery I assume?

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