skydive69

I would love to get the input of a cycling coach regarding optimal body weight for time trialing. Obviously, each person has their optimal weight, but I would like to determine if heavier or lighter might be better for time trialing specifically.

I broke my neck in a time trial last October, and have been training back to form. Prior to the accident, I broke a state time trial record carrying a body weight of 150 at 5' 11". Watching the Dauphine Libere today, one of the commentators mentioned that one of the competitiors would not particularly be a good time trialist because "he is too light." I'm currently carrying 156 lbs, and feel very strong on the bicycle at that weight. Obviously an increase in weight leads to a decrease in V02max simply by virtue of the formula. I can very easily train back down to 150 lbs, but I cannot help but wonder if I might be stronger at the heavier weight. For example, one state and national TT champion that I competed against was a rather big man, and probably outweighed me by 30 pounds, yet was a record breaking rider. What do you coaches on the forum think about the weight issue? As an aside, at 150, my body fat is a ridiculously low 4%, so I am not exactly terribly obese at 156.

Ceya

Weight plays a big part but does not dictact the whole equation. I rode pursuits and time trials at 210. I learned through proper training and techniques to use my weight.

I watch how Moser,Lemond and others rode the time trials and watch and learn from Pros and top amateurs I have known to prepare correctly.

Ulrich proved that at the Giro 06 , even with extra weight but proper technique you can over come.


Increase in muscle = power. Not a body builder's body but increase in load of the muscle will increase wattage like a Marine or SEAL.


S/F<
CEYA!

zimbo

If it's a flat time trial, the amount you weigh is much less important than if it's hilly.

--Steve

cat4ever

You won't see the little climber guys doing very well in time trials because they are out climbing hills. Time trialling to them is only to try and minimize time losses that they'll make back up when the road gets steep. "Time trial speciallists" are typically bigger. Why? More than likely because of their body style supports flat fast riding...as is the same for little guys and climbing.

And in a great, albeit obvious, quote from "HIGH-TECH CYCLING" by Edmund Burke when he writes about the differences between climbers and time trialists: "Specific training also plays a significant role."

Why add mass? It's only going to require more power to move more butt.

skydive69

Good question, but I have always found with anything that requires more power, more body weight seemed to equate to more power. I can tell a difference for example in my squatting ability or for that matter bench pressing ability with an extra five pounds of body weight. Weight lifters compete in different weight classes because bigger guys can lift more weight. So the question is, will a few extra pounds for the cyclist (interested specifically in time trialing, not climbing hills) add more power to the equation than it subtracts from VO2max? I'm not quite sure how lactate threshold would be affected by say a 5 pound increase in body weight. I'm a reformed long distance runner. You lose weight, you run faster. I'm not convinced that this holds true for time trialing.

alpe d'issaquah

Rasmussen anyone?

skydive69

Of course in his case I am always amazed he is not being rushed to the hospital, however it works for him!

cat4ever

Insert cat 5 crash joke here.

133rd in the Giro prologue
109th in the stage 11 ITT

RockyMtnMerlin

That had to be the worst thing I have seen in the TdF It was like someone dragging thier fingernail across a chalkboard!! I did feel sorry for the guy though.

DrWJODonnell

Weight increases will not make you a better time trialist, though in general, heavier riders have more muscle mass and can put out higher wattages. Flat TTs are about frontal area, and light riders and heavy riders still have about the same frontal area in an optimal position. Thus, the stronger (ie the heavier) wins the TT. Zabriskie is just over 140, yet no one doubts his TT prowess. That is where the training comes in. Don't worry about adding weight just to add weight. Rather focus on strength and wattage at LT. If you happen to gain leg mass and thus weight, then I guess a weight increase is in order.

By the way, weight helps significantly with handling a TT bike where cross winds can be brutal considering aero frames, deep dish/disc wheels.

skydive69

Doc: Thanks for the very interesting reply! I had wondered what Zabriskie's weight was, and I certainly cannot argue with the fact that I broke a record at a very light weight for me (150).

I am unfortunately aware of the effects of cross winds on a TT bike. I alluded to a broken neck in my original post. It happened while time trialing on a day that was so windy, I could not even use my aero bars. I made the stupid decision to run with my Zipp 999 wheelset (rear disk, 80 mm front rim). At the turnaround point, an official ran in front of my path, and according to a witness (I don't recall it), as I swerved to avoid the official, the wind seemingly picked up my rear wheel, I went flying over the handlebars and speared the ground with my head. The result was a fractured C1 cervical vertebra.

El Diablo Rojo

Weight has less to do with it than threshold watts/kg. A pure climbers usually have a lower watts/kg than a good TTist. One of my teammates can destroy me in a TT but I'll drop him anytime on a sustained climb. I weigh about 18 pounds less them him and his watts/kg is higher. This is why I wasn't surprised to see someone like O'Grady do well yesterday in the Daulphine prolog. That was all about a short burst of power. Thor did well yesterday also, both men are also great sprinters.

merlinextraligh

Climbing is obviously power to weight ratio. Flat TT its more power to surface area. Thus, bigger riders tend to have more power. And bigger riders tend to have less surface area in relation to their weight than smaller riders (its a surface to volume ratio thing.) Thus everything else equal bigger riders tend to have more power as a percentage of surface area, and thus tend to TT better on the flats.

While weight in a flat tt is not that important, adding weight to your frame will not help you go faster, unless 1) its in the form of muscle and adds more power, or 2) you eating too little to maintain your weight and to train hard enough and restrcited calorie intake is limiting your ability to train and is therefore reducing your power.
If you feel good at 156, I wouldn't worry about it. If you've got a power meter, you could experiment. Eat a little more high quality foods and see if your power increases as you put on a few pounds. I dob't it will however, unless you're not eating enough aleready.

DrWJODonnell

Actually, that is not true. Climbers are climbers because of the wattage/kg (in talking about sustained climbs, usually LT watts/kg) in comparisson with raw wattage provided by the bigger sprinters. The reason that O'Grady did well is because he is a sprinter and so has a very high power output over 5 minutes. The only way that a person with a lower wattage/kg will do better is if they have 1) higher raw wattage output, and 2) short climb (under 5 minutes) or low grade climb (less than 4% grade). But for a true climb, higher watts/kg wins every time (as long as you define watts/kg correctly - sustainable power output at threshold/kg of rider assuming similar bike weights (if different bike weights, they should be included in calculation as well).

Snicklefritz

I've got a good threshold power output that my coach thinks I can push a lot higher too. It makes me wish I looked like a twig. I'm beginning to wonder if there is any advantage to not being a twig

Snicklefritz

I've got a good threshold power output that my coach thinks I can push a lot higher. It makes me wish I looked like a twig. I'm beginning to wonder if there is any advantage to not being a twig when it comes to cycling I was in my LBS the other day and one of the customer said "look at the pistons on that woman!". so I've got muscular quads, but what good are they for if I don't have a great sprint and my legs will never be skinny enough toqualify as a stick-skinny climber?

merlinextraligh

That describes me exactly. Comparitively speaking I put out a lot of raw power, but because of my size, my threshold watts per kg is poor. So I can climb pretty well on short power climbs (even win the 2 minute climbs up the bridge sometimes), tt well on flat courses, but can only watch the climbers ride away on real hills.

DrWJODonnell

Time Trial! I don't sprint well, but I can climb (even though I am heavy at 170lbs) and I TT VERY well. Win RR from the break, Win Crits from a break (not as much yo-yo-ing), and stomp people at TTs. Don't worry about not being a skinny climber or a massive sprinter. Most people are not one of those extremes and can still do very well with the exception of the extreme races (TTs that go straight up or RR that you cannot hide your break from the peloton).

VosBike

Who was it who said something along the line of "let the bike shape the body"

Your frontal area isn't going to change much with weight. I assume TT's in florida are flat as could be. So weight shouldn't be the number you're concerned with.

Given a near constant frontal area, sustainable wattage becomes all that matters. Work on improving that number. If that means adding or losing weight, then so be it.

skydive69

Which unfortunately brings me back to my original question. I'm not looking to do experiments, and don't use a wattmeter. I'm looking for empircal data. Having said that, I wrote to Dr. Arnie Baker today with my question. As a physician, cycling author, national champion time trialist and national TT record holder, perhaps I can get a definitive answer from him.

skydive69

I am tempted to get a power meter being a gadeteer, but unfortunately have not yet made the plunge.

Snicklefritz

If you are into gadgets or are in the least way a techie, then you will love powermeters! I didn't sleep much the first week I got it, I was so busy analyzing data and playing with numbers. There's nothing like waking up, going for a ride and having a computer tell you that you suck. On the other hand, There have been days where I wake up feeling like $hit and yet I can push the watts and have a good workout. I'd definitely recommend it if you're into numbers and serious raining/racing.

Squint

Translation: all of you suck and I'm going to ask someone with a lot of qualifications in hopes of getting the answer I want rather than the correct one.

skydive69

All of the above applies. One of my regular training partners uses a PM and he loves the thing.

skydive69

Those are your words not mine. As an engineer by schooling and an airline pilot by profession I'm in to very specific data obtained empirically. When my engine is on fire, opinions do me no good - only proven effacaceous procedures. Having said that, I got my answer from Dr. Baker literally moments ago, and it looks like the below is the closest I am going to get to a definitive answer:

Sandy,

Thank you for writing.

<<"too light to make a good time trialist.">>

Climbing is about power to weight.

Time trialing is about power to drag, or power to surface area.

This means:

Small riders who time trial well are almost always able to climb well.

Large riders who climb well are almost always able to time trial well.

But not all small riders who climb well can time trial well, and not all large riders who time trial well can climb well.

A few pounds generally is of no consequence in time trialing, unlike in climbing where it can make an important difference.

Best wishes,

Arnie