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Old 07-20-06, 05:37 AM   #1
gcl8a
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Speedplay propaganda

It's bad enough the nonsense (in my personal opinion) Speedplay puts out about weight, contact area, etc. Sure, most companies overhype/mislead/lie with their marketing, but I find this offensive:

"Is the weight of a pedal system important?"

"Yes. All pedal system weight, like wheel weight, is rotating weight. It is twice as important to reduce the weight of rotating parts on a bicycle than it is to reduce the weight of non-rotating parts. An old bicycle saying says it all: "A pound off the wheels is worth two off the frame." The same can be said about pedals."

I get really irritated when companies treat us like children (much the way the current Bush administration does, but that's a whole other thread). I'm done venting, now.

Caveat: I understand that some people have Speedplay's and love them. I used to have a pair, but have switched to Ultegra's. I really liked the feel of the Speedplay's and I wish I could ride them -- they just didn't work out for me.
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Old 07-20-06, 10:25 AM   #2
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so you tried them, didn't care for them, and now everything about the company is pure, concentrated evil?

go away troll.
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Old 07-20-06, 10:30 AM   #3
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so you tried them, didn't care for them, and now everything about the company is pure, concentrated evil?

go away troll.

I agree. Go away. You tired them, and "they didn't work out" for you so now you think the physics of rotational mass vs. stationary mass that the company talks about is wrong. Go read a book and grow up.
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Old 07-20-06, 10:48 AM   #4
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I do think that rotational weight on the pedals is somehow different from rotational weight on the wheels. First, the accelerations/decelerations at the wheel are huge compared to changes in pedal cadence, and with each pedal stroke the weight of the pedal going down helps you the same amount as the weight of the opposite pedal coming up hurts you. I'd have to guess that if one of the engineers extraordinaire on the forum did the math it would be a pretty negligible benefit.

Say what you will about trolling, but taking "an old bicycle saying" about WHEELS and extrapolating it to PEDALS is pretty shaky at best.

Any takers in the engineering world to shed some light?

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Old 07-20-06, 11:48 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by DrPete
I do think that rotational weight on the pedals is somehow different from rotational weight on the wheels. First, the accelerations/decelerations at the wheel are huge compared to changes in pedal cadence, and with each pedal stroke the weight of the pedal going down helps you the same amount as the weight of the opposite pedal coming up hurts you. I'd have to guess that if one of the engineers extraordinaire on the forum did the math it would be a pretty negligible benefit.

Say what you will about trolling, but taking "an old bicycle saying" about WHEELS and extrapolating it to PEDALS is pretty shaky at best.

Any takers in the engineering world to shed some light?

DrPete
Just as with wheels, the only time the different between weight and "rotational weight" (mass moment of inertia) is going to be during accelerations. Pedals will have a smaller radius of gyration and smaller mass than the wheels, thus making any change much smaller than a similar percent change in the wheelset, but I would think that, say, in a crit where you have to stop pedaling each time you go around a corner, a decrease is pedal weight would become noticable.

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Old 07-20-06, 11:53 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by craigery
I agree. Go away. You tired them, and "they didn't work out" for you so now you think the physics of rotational mass vs. stationary mass that the company talks about is wrong. Go read a book and grow up.
Wow, are you two a couple of pieces of work. Where did I call them "pure evil"? And "Grow up"? Good one!

The fact of the matter is, even _if_ you accept that wheel weight counts twice as bike weight (which it doesn't, but I'd hate to bore you with the details), then pedals can't possibly count twice as well, as they are rotating (revolving, really -- I read that in a book once) at a much slower rate.

But the point isn't to debate the physics -- I figured it was obvious (although apparently I was wrong) -- but with the marketing rubbish. They know it's wrong, yet they throw it out there to fool the uneducated (not that I'm pointing finger, now). Same with the 'contact area' nonsense.
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Old 07-20-06, 12:00 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by raptor3x
Just as with wheels, the only time the different between weight and "rotational weight" (mass moment of inertia) is going to be during accelerations. Pedals will have a smaller radius of gyration and smaller mass than the wheels, thus making any change much smaller than a similar percent change in the wheelset, but I would think that, say, in a crit where you have to stop pedaling each time you go around a corner, a decrease is pedal weight would become noticable.

-Will Humber
Ph.D. Candidate in Aerospace Engineering
Pennsylvania State University
Fraction of a watt, at best.

AE at Penn State, huh? You wouldn't be able to help me out with an implicit scheme for flux splitting of incompressible flows, would you? Man, it's making my brain hurt.
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Old 07-20-06, 12:15 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by gcl8a
Wow, are you two a couple of pieces of work. Where did I call them "pure evil"? And "Grow up"? Good one!

The fact of the matter is, even _if_ you accept that wheel weight counts twice as bike weight (which it doesn't, but I'd hate to bore you with the details), then pedals can't possibly count twice as well, as they are rotating (revolving, really -- I read that in a book once) at a much slower rate.

But the point isn't to debate the physics -- I figured it was obvious (although apparently I was wrong) -- but with the marketing rubbish. They know it's wrong, yet they throw it out there to fool the uneducated (not that I'm pointing finger, now). Same with the 'contact area' nonsense.
Please bore us with the details. Your point seemed to be to refute Speedplay's marketing, so go for it.

They may be right about rotational weight on pedals, but the differences in pedal weight is usually only 10, 20 or 30 grams. I agree that it may be just a little difference, but it's all about shaving weight and effort where you can.
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Old 07-20-06, 12:23 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by gcl8a
It's bad enough the nonsense (in my personal opinion) Speedplay puts out about weight, contact area, etc. Sure, most companies overhype/mislead/lie with their marketing, but I find this offensive:

"Is the weight of a pedal system important?"

"Yes. All pedal system weight, like wheel weight, is rotating weight. It is twice as important to reduce the weight of rotating parts on a bicycle than it is to reduce the weight of non-rotating parts. An old bicycle saying says it all: "A pound off the wheels is worth two off the frame." The same can be said about pedals."

I get really irritated when companies treat us like children (much the way the current Bush administration does, but that's a whole other thread). I'm done venting, now.

Caveat: I understand that some people have Speedplay's and love them. I used to have a pair, but have switched to Ultegra's. I really liked the feel of the Speedplay's and I wish I could ride them -- they just didn't work out for me.
Gee, that is important stuff!! Let's start a crusade. You must have an idyllic life if this disturbs you so much. Oh, did I mention that I love my three sets of Speedplay pedals. Having said that, they should not be allowed to get away with such an affront to our alleged intellegence!
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Old 07-20-06, 12:24 PM   #10
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my speedplay haiku

small and light for sure...
but how much do the cleats weigh?
a-ha! what a scam.

*note: i'm not on anyone's side in this, so don't take it that way.
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Old 07-20-06, 12:40 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by dog hair
my speedplay haiku

small and light for sure...
but how much do the cleats weigh?
a-ha! what a scam.

*note: i'm not on anyone's side in this, so don't take it that way.
Hehe... right on. The total system weight of my old X5's is actually MORE than a pair of Keo carbons... That's not why I went to the Looks, but it is a little "creative measurement" by the folks at Speedplay... and if you buy the jive quoted above from their website, their pedals look worse than a lot of the competition!

But whatever. Every company hypes their product in whatever way they can. Ultimately it's up to an educated consumer to know the difference, and choose the product that works for them.

DrPete
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Old 07-20-06, 01:13 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by hollow
Please bore us with the details. Your point seemed to be to refute Speedplay's marketing, so go for it.

They may be right about rotational weight on pedals, but the differences in pedal weight is usually only 10, 20 or 30 grams. I agree that it may be just a little difference, but it's all about shaving weight and effort where you can.
Search my user name and look for posts about rotational mass.

Because, really, what I meant is I don't want to bore myself with the details.
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Old 07-20-06, 01:33 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by skydive69
Gee, that is important stuff!! Let's start a crusade. You must have an idyllic life if this disturbs you so much. Oh, did I mention that I love my three sets of Speedplay pedals. Having said that, they should not be allowed to get away with such an affront to our alleged intellegence!
I was thinking a letter writing campaign followed up with a boycott and protests at major cycling events. We could probably get organized by the Vuelta. Maybe you could bring your three sets (Wow! You stud!) and we could burn them or something.


Our slogan could be "FIGHT THE AXLE OF EVIL!"


Anyway, sorry to have wasted your time on the internet with something so...trivial. Next up: gcl8a takes on Microsoft!

Which reminds me:

I was reading an article about elliptical chainrings. Shimano (remember the colossal failure of Biopace?) poo-poo'ed the idea with the notion that the legs are naturally most efficient when they move at constant speed. For bonus points, can you tell me why this is a load of crap? Anyone?

OK, I'm off to go lie by the stream, eat fresh picked raspberries and read poetry to my wife. What a life!
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Old 07-20-06, 01:38 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by gcl8a
Anyway, sorry to have wasted your time on the internet with something so...trivial. Next up: gcl8a takes on Microsoft!



OK, I'm off to go lie by the stream, eat fresh picked raspberries and read poetry to my wife. What a life!
Your apology is accepted, however leave Microsoft alone - my stock is struggling enough.

Okay, I'll send her home immediately!!
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Old 07-20-06, 01:39 PM   #15
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-Will Humber
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I wish you the best with your career after getting your Ph.D. My dad just retired from 20 years of work on the space shuttle's boosters. I'm glad he was able to see a successful shuttle mission right after his retirement.

I think you can get good performance out of Speedplay or all the Look style pedals, but as dog hair and DrPete mentioned, look at the weight of the pedals and the cleats. Personally, I just don't like having all that Speedplay hardware on my shoes vs. the relatively simple cleats of my Shimanos.

Last edited by 7rider; 07-20-06 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 07-20-06, 01:41 PM   #16
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Your apology is accepted, however leave Microsoft alone - my stock is struggling enough.
I unloaded all my long-term positions in MSFT a few months ago (I should have done it a few years ago), but MSFT is still killing my index funds.
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Old 07-20-06, 01:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by 7rider
Personally, I just don't like having all that Speedplay hardware on my shoes vs. the relatively simple cleats of my Shimanos.
But you get serious poseur points. Titanium, carbon, full Disco kit. None of them come close to coffee shop covers.
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Old 07-20-06, 04:55 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by DrPete
Hehe... right on. The total system weight of my old X5's is actually MORE than a pair of Keo carbons... That's not why I went to the Looks, but it is a little "creative measurement" by the folks at Speedplay... and if you buy the jive quoted above from their website, their pedals look worse than a lot of the competition!

But whatever. Every company hypes their product in whatever way they can. Ultimately it's up to an educated consumer to know the difference, and choose the product that works for them.
DrPete
X5's are not in the same level as Keo Carbons. I'm not sure, but I bet X/1's would be a lot closer.

Plus, more pedal clearance!

I'm a crit racer, that one extra pedal stroke out of the corner is important to me. But really my knees suck and even with a good stroke any non-free float pedal bothers them.
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Old 07-20-06, 07:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by jbhowat
X5's are not in the same level as Keo Carbons. I'm not sure, but I bet X/1's would be a lot closer.

Plus, more pedal clearance!

I'm a crit racer, that one extra pedal stroke out of the corner is important to me. But really my knees suck and even with a good stroke any non-free float pedal bothers them.
Hehe... I'm a big boy so the X1's wouldn't work for me... But you're right. Either way, I like the Looks, and for whatever reason I feel like I get a much better stroke sprinting out of the corner (and in the straights) with the Keos, and the difference in cornering clearance hasn't caused me any road rash yet. Like I said, whatever works.

I'm sure if Look were the (relatively) new kid on the block they'd have kooky propaganda too.

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Old 07-20-06, 09:12 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by DrPete
Hehe... I'm a big boy so the X1's wouldn't work for me... But you're right. Either way, I like the Looks, and for whatever reason I feel like I get a much better stroke sprinting out of the corner (and in the straights) with the Keos, and the difference in cornering clearance hasn't caused me any road rash yet. Like I said, whatever works.

I'm sure if Look were the (relatively) new kid on the block they'd have kooky propaganda too.

DrPete
So far nobody is explaining why the Speedplays didn't work for them. They have worked for me for over ten years. And since Speedplay has been around for well over a decade (my guess is closer to two at this point) they're not exactly a 'new' company. My guess is their hype is just like all other company product hype - typical.

By the way, everybody I know who rides Speedplays sort of swears by them. I do. There's plenty of them in the local peloton.
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Old 07-20-06, 09:12 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DrPete
with each pedal stroke the weight of the pedal going down helps you the same amount as the weight of the opposite pedal coming up hurts you.
Congrats, you've discovered perpetual motion.

Come on man, didn't you take ONE physics class your entire time in school?

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Old 07-20-06, 09:21 PM   #22
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So far nobody is explaining why the Speedplays didn't work for them. They have worked for me for over ten years. And since Speedplay has been around for well over a decade (my guess is closer to two at this point) they're not exactly a 'new' company. My guess is their hype is just like all other company product hype - typical.

By the way, everybody I know who rides Speedplays sort of swears by them. I do. There's plenty of them in the local peloton.
I'm guessing X1's wouldn't "work for him" cause he weighs too much. The Ti spindles probably have a weight limit. Not sure what it is, but at 165-170 at the most I'm sure I'm within it. I'm also on older X/1's that to my knowledge didn't have a weight limit.
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Old 07-20-06, 09:40 PM   #23
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Congrats, you've discovered perpetual motion.

Come on man, didn't you take ONE physics class your entire time in school?
Damn that friction, damn it to hell!
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Old 07-20-06, 09:43 PM   #24
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For rotating parts, it's all about Moment of Inertia.

I = mr2. (r = radius)

Therefore, it's negligible in pedals (super tiny radius and mass) below 1000 RPM.
Also pretty negligible in cranks (very small radius and mass)



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Old 07-20-06, 10:12 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dog hair
my speedplay haiku

small and light for sure...
but how much do the cleats weigh?
a-ha! what a scam.

*note: i'm not on anyone's side in this, so don't take it that way.


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