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  1. #1
    Cat WTF
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    Cat 3 & 4 sandbaggers

    Can anything be done about career sandbaggers? Where is the pride that people used to have about upgrading (or at least that's what older racers tell me)? I get tired of same couple of people winning every event. I'm busting my hump in hopes to score the "elusive" cat 4 win (or even podium) and going against the grain of EVERY cat 4 race in southwest Ohio. Cat 4 races here mean recovery rides until the final half mile, then sprint. My sprint is my weakness as I've been training for time trials mostly.

    Maybe I should just learn to sprint.

    I will be cat4ever with this attitude.

    If you see me race this weekend, I'll be guy who launches yet another suicidal attack, and it will be solo most likely.

    /crybaby mode <off>

  2. #2
    Throw the stick!!!! LowCel's Avatar
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    I feel pretty much the same way. Next time I'm racing in Ohio maybe we can attempt a suicidal attack together. Well, either that or I can learn to sprint.
    I may be fat but I'm slow enough to make up for it.

  3. #3
    CAT 2 wanna be PolishPostal's Avatar
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    I think that the serious sandbag problem is in the 3's. And you can't really blame these sandbaggers. Ok, your a pretty strong 3, you have enough points to upgrade to a 2. Where does that get you? You are now forced to race in the PRO/1/2/3 race. If you stay a 3 you can choose to race with the PRO/1/2/3's or the 3's. If you don't really have the potential to make it to the 1's or Pro then upgrading to the 2' is sort of no-mans land.

    I know a very strong 3, I do give him credit. He gives it a go in the PRO/1/2/3 race quite often.

  4. #4
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    Are you attacking repeatedly during races? If you're strong eventually guys will start coming with you and strong group you can stay away. There is a lot of negative racing in the 4's but that's not a good reason to not be aggressive and mix things up a bit...

    wayne

  5. #5
    Cat WTF
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKYR
    Are you attacking repeatedly during races? If you're strong eventually guys will start coming with you and strong group you can stay away. There is a lot of negative racing in the 4's but that's not a good reason to not be aggressive and mix things up a bit...

    wayne

    Attacking is all I do. I time trial well, but the hard part is getting people to go on the attack with me. I'm certainly not good enough to solo away for the win on my own. When I see other cat 4 "attacks", all it really is is one guy pedalling 1mph faster than the group, get a 50 foot gap and slow down....???

  6. #6
    Senior Member spunky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cat4ever
    Attacking is all I do. I time trial well, but the hard part is getting people to go on the attack with me. I'm certainly not good enough to solo away for the win on my own. When I see other cat 4 "attacks", all it really is is one guy pedalling 1mph faster than the group, get a 50 foot gap and slow down....???
    That's not really an attack. An attack should be a very hard effort with the intent of dropping the group and opening a significant gap or splitting the field apart. If most of your races are recovery rides, that should be pretty easy to do.
    running makes your legs nasty. Cycling makes them look a weird way that i like.

  7. #7
    Tiocfáidh ár Lá jfmckenna's Avatar
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    I can relate to this. Most of my cat 4 races are sprint finishes and I am no sprinter. I say keep trying for the break. That is what I do. In about 50+ races I have done over the last 3 years I was in one successful 4 man break that stayed away to the finish. I've been in several breaks that lasted a long time but were caught and I will also go off the front solo and eventually get caught. But I don't care I keep trying and looking for that one to get away and it just makes me stronger and it's a hell of a lot more fun to at least try something, oh and it's safer too.

    I did a crit a couple weeks ago and was constantly on the attack. I finally had to rest and when I did the successful 3 man break went off. I missed my opportunity. I really wanted to win this race so I had to get up to that break. It finally got to a point where I was up front and I turned around and said, "OK who ever wants to chase raise your hand". It was really funny they all just looked at me smiled and nodded there heads. So I tortured them all by going ballistic and trying to ride them off my wheel. It just pisses me off when no one wants to work. I mean I understand the whole tactic about saving energy but that is not the only tactic in bike racing.

    I say keep time trialing and work on your sprint because even in a successful break there will be some sort of sprint finish and you will need it to rely on when you get caught.

  8. #8
    Cat WTF
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    Quote Originally Posted by spunky
    That's not really an attack. An attack should be a very hard effort with the intent of dropping the group and opening a significant gap or splitting the field apart. If most of your races are recovery rides, that should be pretty easy to do.

    That's why I put "attacks" in quotes as they are jokes. When I decide to head out, I give it hell and get a gap pretty easy. Then it's relying on team mates to block while I'm out with my eyeballs bleeding but that sometimes doesn't work out. It's easy to bring back a single rider.

  9. #9
    Tiocfáidh ár Lá jfmckenna's Avatar
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    ^^^ if you have teammates that are willing to work with you that is a different story. Blocking is a difficult art to learn. They have to ride hard enough for the field to not feel threatened and comfortable in the draft but just not hard enough to catch you. Have a teammate lead you out on a long attack off the front. When you get caught another teammate should immediatly counter. Keep doing that until you can maybe launch off the front. If you have enough teammates take one with you.

  10. #10
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Work on your sprint. If you constantly go out on Solo bungee attacks and they never stick racers are gonna take note of that and nobody in their right mind is going to go with you. Need to be able to change up a bit.

    Ask yourself, how are the
    same couple of people winning every event
    riding?

  11. #11
    Senior Member spunky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cat4ever
    That's why I put "attacks" in quotes as they are jokes. When I decide to head out, I give it hell and get a gap pretty easy. Then it's relying on team mates to block while I'm out with my eyeballs bleeding but that sometimes doesn't work out. It's easy to bring back a single rider.
    I got it. Maybe a change in strategy would help. Instead of having your teamates block all the time, how about getting a couple of them to go with you? Then once you do establish a breakaway, you can share the work at pulling potentially making your break more effective.
    running makes your legs nasty. Cycling makes them look a weird way that i like.

  12. #12
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    I'm not going to let two or three riders from the same team ride away from me.

    You need your teammates to sit at the front of the field and pretend to go fast. All they have to do is go the same speed as you (or slightly less); other riders will be willing to let them do the work to keep the speed up.
    If they slow down too much, everyone will realize what's happening and start chasing.

    Sandbaggers are like the people who stayed in the 4th grade for an extra year. The tests are easy.

  13. #13
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    If you have teammates try attacking and counterring to beat up the field. Typically there are only a few guys really driving the chase. Soften them up a bit througout the race and then attack with 5k to go for the win...or just get a gap and pedal harder. See it's that easy

    wayne

  14. #14
    Cat WTF
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo76
    Ask yourself, how are the riding?

    They live for the sit-in/do no work philosophy as they are good sprinters. Why the rest of pack fall right in line with this, I don't know. Makes for boring and frustrating races.

  15. #15
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cat4ever
    They live for the sit-in/do no work philosophy as they are good sprinters. Why the rest of pack fall right in line with this, I don't know. Makes for boring and frustrating races.
    You just outlined my entire racing philsophy. Some insight:

    I love frustration, makes people ride stupid, try suicide attacks, ect. Their focus becomes doing something to impact me rather than themselves (so who was really negative racing??). Both of us know all I have to do is hang around till the finish.

    I hate having to cover breaks, gaps in the field. The best thing you could do is put some of your teams "attack" energy into making selections (spliting the field). I might get caught in the wrong group and have to work covering a gap.

    In short format criteriums in flat courses a decent sprinter is gonna be pretty tough to beat. Unfortunatly most lower Cat domestic racing is like this, and yet many still want to train/race like a TDF rider. Work on speed or accept your fate.

  16. #16
    Giving you the business. Cypress's Avatar
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    As a former sandbagger I can tell you that there are two types. There are the ones that stay in cat 4 because they are winning and are afraid to move to the three's lest they start having to do some work.

    Then there are guys like me. A short stay in the 4's is required before moving to the 3's. Just so happens that the fastest way to get to cat 3 is to win a bunch of 4 races.

    Quote Originally Posted by cat4ever
    They live for the sit-in/do no work philosophy as they are good sprinters. Why the rest of pack fall right in line with this, I don't know. Makes for boring and frustrating races.
    Then you need to do the same. I used to race MTB, then became a roadie. In my first few road races, I would go to the front and work my ass off then get dropped when the rest of the pack wanted to play. Sit in the top 15 and take a pull every now and then. Normally a cat 4 peloton will not let a breakaway get far, let the guys on the front do the work. Start the sprints earlier than anybody else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderator
    Dear Cypress,

    You have received an infraction at Bike Forums.

  17. #17
    more ape than man timmhaan's Avatar
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    i say downgrade to a 5 and start kicking those guys around.

  18. #18
    more ape than man timmhaan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKYR
    Are you attacking repeatedly during races? If you're strong eventually guys will start coming with you and strong group you can stay away. There is a lot of negative racing in the 4's but that's not a good reason to not be aggressive and mix things up a bit...

    wayne
    agree. one of our dominate nyc racers attacks over and over and over again until a break sticks. sometimes it takes 10-15 tries. luckly for him, he has the strength to do that and people know that if they get into a break with him they're expected to work otherwise he'll just keep attacking. it's sort of the vino approach where you just bang away like a hammer until something happens.

  19. #19
    Racing iS my Training Pizza Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cat4ever
    Can anything be done about career sandbaggers? Where is the pride that people used to have about upgrading (or at least that's what older racers tell me)? I get tired of same couple of people winning every event. I'm busting my hump in hopes to score the "elusive" cat 4 win (or even podium) and going against the grain of EVERY cat 4 race in southwest Ohio. Cat 4 races here mean recovery rides until the final half mile, then sprint. My sprint is my weakness as I've been training for time trials mostly.

    Maybe I should just learn to sprint.

    I will be cat4ever with this attitude.

    If you see me race this weekend, I'll be guy who launches yet another suicidal attack, and it will be solo most likely.

    /crybaby mode <off>
    I guess they don't have mandatory upgrades there?
    We have a mandatory upgrade to Cat 3 after 30 points scored in the 4's.

    I've lost far more sprints than I've won, but it has less to do with raw speed (which I don't have a lot of) and more to do with timing. I used to always start my sprint too soon, only to have 1, 2, or 3 guys go by me before the line. Everyone's tired at the end of a race, so even the guys with great sprints won't be going as fast. The key is to sit on other guys wheels (who will start sprinting too soon, especially in the 4's) and save your sprint until the last possible moment.

    Also, on your solo suicide attacks, how far out do you go? I don't think I've ever seen a solo attack in the 1st half of a race succeed, but the ones in the last 1/4 of the race often do. It's usually after several other attacks have been caught and the chasers are all tired, while the guy who's attacking now has been sitting in the whole time being patient.

    I think the toughest thing I've had to learn in racing is to be patient.

    Good luck!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizza Man
    Also, on your solo suicide attacks, how far out do you go? I don't think I've ever seen a solo attack in the 1st half of a race succeed, but the ones in the last 1/4 of the race often do. It's usually after several other attacks have been caught and the chasers are all tired, while the guy who's attacking now has been sitting in the whole time being patient.

    Good advice, also know when to attack. Hitting the gas on a long straight downhill won't get you anywhere. Getting out of sight quickly (curves, hills, etc) will really put a damper on the chase (out of sight out of mind).

    wayne

  21. #21
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Are you getting reeled in after each attack? If so, the other riders are recognizing you and don't want to join you because you aren't successful. When you're already pushing at 99%, it's not worth the extra strain unless you are pretty sure that group can stay out front. I knew a guy who made an attack almost every lap of a crit (on the back straight because he did some eratic moves that would get his license thrown out), we'd reel him in but nobody ever tried to join a break with him, because he couldn't hold it for more than a thousand feet.

  22. #22
    Senior Member sverrefehn's Avatar
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    Heh. I know who you're talking about.
    Unfortunately, we do not have automatic upgrades in this region. The officials don't pay close enough attention to keep track, and the reporting of results by the race officials is erratic, so it's hard for them to know anyway.

  23. #23
    CAT 2 wanna be PolishPostal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by urbanknight
    Are you getting reeled in after each attack? If so, the other riders are recognizing you and don't want to join you because you aren't successful. When you're already pushing at 99%, it's not worth the extra strain unless you are pretty sure that group can stay out front. I knew a guy who made an attack almost every lap of a crit (on the back straight because he did some eratic moves that would get his license thrown out), we'd reel him in but nobody ever tried to join a break with him, because he couldn't hold it for more than a thousand feet.
    Tactically it isn't a bad idea to throw in a couple half hearted attacks that they reel in. Then they start to take you for granted. Then when the time is right you launch a full blown attack and you are not taken seriously. Now this tactic will only work for a race or two.

    And I'll 2nd that part about Ohio race results (very slowly if ever) getting reported to USCF (ie Ohio Valley Racing and Team Columbus). USCF should set a time limit on when results need to be submitted.
    Last edited by PolishPostal; 08-03-06 at 12:39 PM.

  24. #24
    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    Well B, (cat4ever).......... Garrett, Little Rouse and I were discussing this last night. I went on the breakaway and got caught, you counter attacked and we blocked. We had the field down to about 19 mph at one point when someone from our team attacked. Wether he was trying to bridge or whatever, he picked up the pace, which is why I believe you got caught. Sometime during the ride, or over email, we'll discuss who and why. That was part of the problem......

    Anyway, as to the sandbaggers, I called one of them out on Saturday and he replies, "Well you know, I've never won a true 4's race, just 4/5's". Then proceeds to tell me that last year was his first year of racing. I guess it's true when he buys one day passes for 3 years and he finally bought a USCF license last year. You know who I mean too.

    --EDIT--
    And I just emailed you some pics of this weekend.
    Last edited by cslone; 08-03-06 at 04:43 PM.
    FS: Fuji SL1 frameset, 55.5cm toptube, excellent condition.

  25. #25
    Senior Member sverrefehn's Avatar
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    cslone - I know of whom you speak, and there are others.

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