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  1. #1
    Wher'd u Get That Jacket? flythebike's Avatar
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    Eurosport Article : Armstrong's Positive Lieutenants

    http://www.eurosport.com/cycling/tou...to942608.shtml

    There ought to be fuel for discussion of that article so lets do it here.

    Seems to me the author makes a number of good points, the most tragic that had Landis stayed with Postal, he might not be faced with this big mess. (He might not have won either - but that is neither here nor there.) Makes a good point about the culture of illicit anything - it tends to run in circles. And evidently, Postal/Disco didn't have a doping culture. These riders left Postal/Disco and then fell afoul of doping. A real shame.

    I went to the grocery store with my kid in tow and in team kit yesterday and I felt like somebody was going to come up and ask me if I'm doping... a far cry from the 'you're like Lance' vibes I used to sometimes get.

    No, I'm out there dragging 40 pounds of kid and trailer behind me, and passing folks.
    WeBlog: http://flythebike.blogspot.com
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  2. #2
    SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07 Walter's Avatar
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    It is interesting. So many former riders getting caught fuels either cynicism or respect.

    Since there's no lack of cynicism around here I'll take the other side.

    That's a bit of a change for me. I've never been part of a "Lance is a doper" crowd but I've never really cared for the "Tour and nothing but the Tour" approach he brought to the sport. I still don't think it truly good to magnify one race over all others.

    However, I've always thought the doping allegations were missing the point that LA trained like a fiend for one race and then disappeared at the end of July. It's not like he was winning or even competing in April and August.

    In sum I don't consider myself a real big LA fan but the doping allegations needs more than I've seen so far.





    “Life is not one damned thing after another. Life is one damned thing over and over.”
    Edna St. Vincent Millay

  3. #3
    Now Racer Ex Vinokurtov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flythebike
    And evidently, Postal/Disco didn't have a doping culture.
    Hard to buy that on a lot of levels. Former USPS doc has stated he was approached by several members about product, he was let go not long after he told them no. Ton of rumor mill and direct testimony under oath about Lance et al using product, the association with Ferrari, Etc.

    Of course there's the fact that doping works, and works very well. We know that 4 of the top 5 TDF finishers from last year have been implicated in doping, and they were easily beaten by the winner.

    Testing clean at this point, given the number of riders who have passed tests and have found to be doping (see above) seems to be just the basic level of good masking. In the war of the doctors, Disco seems to be winning, unless you believe Lance is 15% better than everyone else...in which case the other guys should have been investing in Kryptonite too. 150 plus stages and hardly a hiccup.

    Probably close to a level playing field. The guys that were winning, would have won if everyone was clean. EPO doesn't give you the courage to try to ride the rest of the field off your wheel, testo didn't make the difference in Floyd's ride.

    Whatever.

    Racing season's alomost over so I'm going to be tuning in on the NFL. No doping there.

    Go Niners.

  4. #4
    DEADBEEF khuon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
    Racing season's alomost over so I'm going to be tuning in on the NFL. No doping there.
    You forgot to include a smiley at the end of that sentence.
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  5. #5
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khuon
    You forgot to include a smiley at the end of that sentence.
    Allow me to provide the appropriate response...

    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  6. #6
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Yep. That's what we need as an antidote to that dastardly UCI cycling. A nice clean, untainted sport like NFL Football is PERFECT. And right after that we can all cue up for that Barry Bonds breaks H. Aaron's lifetime HR record celebration in 2007.

    Somebody pass the bong.

  7. #7
    Wher'd u Get That Jacket? flythebike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad
    Somebody pass the bong.
    You're the one holding it! Did you forget? YOU pass it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
    Hard to buy that on a lot of levels. Former USPS doc has stated he was approached by several members about product, he was let go not long after he told them no. on of rumor mill and direct testimony under oath about Lance et al using product, the association with Ferrari, Etc.
    Sure. We've all heard the rumors. A friend has this as the theory for Disco's mediocre performance in the Tour this year, that they were all afraid of being caught, so they didn't dope, thus the (mostly) poor performances. But the fact remains is that Armstrong and Disco have never faced sanction for a positive test. Phonac has 10 scandals to its credit (and that is pretty bad credit).

    For sure the hardest thing to swallow is that Lance beat all the (other?) dopers without doping. In my heart of hearts I would like to believe that that was due to his all consuming passion. The passion that destroyed his marriage, etc. The attention to detail that he showed seemed to be greater than anyone else. Those are the kinds of things that produce winning. But yeah, drugs are a bigger advantage than having your bike position right by a milimeter yada yada yada, so I can't fault anyone (including myself) for having doubts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter
    That's a bit of a change for me. I've never been part of a "Lance is a doper" crowd but I've never really cared for the "Tour and nothing but the Tour" approach he brought to the sport. I still don't think it truly good to magnify one race over all others.

    However, I've always thought the doping allegations were missing the point that LA trained like a fiend for one race and then disappeared at the end of July. It's not like he was winning or even competing in April and August.
    I pretty much agree that it is dumb to say Lance was the best. The best at what? The Tour, yeah sure no doubt. But c'mon there is so much more to cycling than the Tour. Boonen is almost unbeatable in the spring and he couldn't win a stage...so what? He's still an amazing rider!

    Minor point Lance did win Tour of Georgia in April recently and in his first incarnation did win Fleche Wallone and San Sebastian, held in April and August respectively. He tried and tried at Liege and Amstel gold and despite some great rides there never could win either. You could argue that as he aged he realized that he only had one shot in the barrel and acted accordingly.
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