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  1. #1
    SilentRider FrankBattle's Avatar
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    Doping bottom line

    With everything going on (regardless of where you stand), it seems there is just as much coverage of doping incycling as there is news of races. The bottom line for me is that until it's all sorted out, I will probably tune off a bit as you really don't know who is/isn't clean.

    The bottom line is that it doesn't matter one bit to me personally. I still go out uand ride my bike with the same reckless abandon as before and dream of flying up hills like the .. er .. pros(?) do. What it is making me do is question every win or storied performance. Who's fault is that? Who cares?

    I'll pass a cursory glance at race results. I might even go check out pro races that are close enough to me, but I will be back when the time is right and all the second shoes have dropped ..

    Just curious what others think ..

  2. #2
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    I firmly believe that the majority of the peloton takes some sort of illegal PED's. It's not something that had ever bothered me in the past. However Floyd's positive really had an effect on me. I've lost interest in Pro cycling to the point that I've not even cracked open my CycleSport. I'm sure I'll get over this disillusionment but I'm not sure how long it's going to take. I've seem to have lost the will to care.

  3. #3
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    My interest has diminished a lot, usually I would be happy cycling.tv was going to show the Vuelta but right now I do not really care. What pisses me off is cycling is only on the news when a rider is caught doping and "Steroid ball with Barry" just keeps on making millions and American fans love it.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
    I firmly believe that the majority of the peloton takes some sort of illegal PED's. It's not something that had ever bothered me in the past. However Floyd's positive really had an effect on me. I've lost interest in Pro cycling to the point that I've not even cracked open my CycleSport. I'm sure I'll get over this disillusionment but I'm not sure how long it's going to take. I've seem to have lost the will to care.
    +1
    I always figured a lot of people were doping, but the whole Floyd thing has been a big disappointment. Even if he didn't dope, the whole media frenzy and the way he has handled it has been less than stellar.
    It's funny (well sad actually) how many people are now talking about pro cycling just because of the Floyd scandal. Even my little brother, who knows absolutely zippo about cycling, is now talking about it. He called me up the other day and the conversation when something like this:

    Me: hello?
    him: Do you dope?
    me: huh?
    him: Do you dope like Floyd? (he doesn't even bother to ask me how I am doing)
    me: If I doped, would I still be in bed at 11am on a sunday after busting my a$$
    on saturday?
    him: you dope! all american cyclists dope!
    me: the only thing I dope with is Starbucks and that isn't illegal.
    him: All americans cheat!, they all dope! the only people who are clean are the french!
    I am moving to france, getting a french girlfriend, buying french things, eating french fries,
    moving to france, speaking french, yeah!

    He has never spoken to me about cycling before, only after this doping crap came out. lol.

  5. #5
    semifreddo amartuerer 'nother's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankBattle
    With everything going on (regardless of where you stand), it seems there is just as much coverage of doping incycling as there is news of races. The bottom line for me is that until it's all sorted out, I will probably tune off a bit as you really don't know who is/isn't clean.

    The bottom line is that it doesn't matter one bit to me personally. I still go out uand ride my bike with the same reckless abandon as before and dream of flying up hills like the .. er .. pros(?) do. What it is making me do is question every win or storied performance. Who's fault is that? Who cares?

    I'll pass a cursory glance at race results. I might even go check out pro races that are close enough to me, but I will be back when the time is right and all the second shoes have dropped ..

    Just curious what others think ..
    That sums up my take on it pretty accurately.

    I would add (exposing my position) that ... bottom line to me is, it's cheating...saying "they all do it, they have been doing it forever, get over it" does not really get to that issue. People have been cheating forever; that's true, but not everyone. And doping is a specific kind of cheating that is much harder to detect and prove (than, say, taking a train for part of a stage, or head-butting someone in a sprint).

    No one condones other kinds of cheating; and I don't see why doping should be treated any differently -- I say, test, prevent, bust as many people as possible and keep at it. It'll probably never be completely clean, but "cleaner" would be better.

    I don't want to have to keep explaining to my kids why these are not heroes to look up to, even though just days ago we were cheering them on to win.

    You want a level playing field, OK, don't cheat -- that's the kind of level I'm looking for.
    Can you pass the test?
    Yield to Life.

  6. #6
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    I'm still following the racing news but trying to avoid the doping news, which is hard. I have no personal need or requirement for the peleton to be clean and I'm just sorry when they get caught, when you get right down to it. Like El Diablo, I'm convinced they're all doing it, and as long as they're not risking immediate death in doing it, I don't care. I'm 100% certain WADA is not going to make the world a better place, so I wish they'd just shup up about it.

    Addressing Floyd in particular, I'd be happy if he prevails in his case, and if he doesn't (and even if he does), I'm sorry he got caught. I am generally unpersuaded that anything he might have done conferred on him an unfair advantage over any other rider. Until persuaded otherwise, I consider him the legitimate and deserving winner of the race. He rode a great race, he rode with guts and panache, and it was a great tour. The moralistic posturing of Pound, McQuaid, and LeFevre makes me sick.

  7. #7
    Now Racer Ex Vinokurtov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
    Even my little brother...called me up the other day and the conversation when something like this:

    him:I am ...(blah blah blah) getting a french girlfriend (blah blah blah)
    All that other stuff was a smokescreen. He was really fishing around to see if you knew any female French cyclists you could hook him up with.

    How'd the race go?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 'nother
    That sums up my take on it pretty accurately.

    I would add (exposing my position) that ... bottom line to me is, it's cheating...saying "they all do it, they have been doing it forever, get over it" does not really get to that issue. People have been cheating forever; that's true, but not everyone. And doping is a specific kind of cheating that is much harder to detect and prove (than, say, taking a train for part of a stage, or head-butting someone in a sprint).
    Well, WADA and UCI have no moral legitimacy in my view, so I don't automatically think of violation of their rules as cheating. Instead, I'm concerned about actions that confer an UNFAIR advantage on the rulebreaker. I don't think of doping as that sort of action in the current climate. But to each his own.

    Quote Originally Posted by 'nother
    No one condones other kinds of cheating; and I don't see why doping should be treated any differently -- I say, test, prevent, bust as many people as possible and keep at it. It'll probably never be completely clean, but "cleaner" would be better.
    I don't know, the old turbo bottle is against the rules and is condoned most of the time. Drafting through the caravan is condoned most of the time. Lots of rules violations are condoned unless they directly and proximately affect the outcome of the race.

    Quote Originally Posted by 'nother
    I don't want to have to keep explaining to my kids why these are not heroes to look up to, even though just days ago we were cheering them on to win.
    I don't want to be snarky, but if that's how you feel, shouldn't you keep them away from professional sports of every type? Pro sports can offer many valuable lessons, but the only plausible hero I can think of is Jackie Robinson. And he wasn't a hero because of how he played the game.

  9. #9
    Senior Member kmkurdone's Avatar
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    Well, I have to disagree with the majority of people on this subject. I race D1 Cross Country and I have to say, if the majority of people in my sport were doping, it would be so frustrating that I would have to quit. Some will say "well you could just dope too", but to me, any form of cheating is just wrong. I would rather take 50th place clean then 1st dirty. I know that racing bikes is how these guys make their living and I do not, but still....

    Integrity means a lot to me and I don't think the "everyone is doing it, so it's okay" excuse flies with me. It reminds me of this (although on a completely different level). If everyone is speeding on the freeway and you get pulled over, you can't tell the cop "But everyone else was speeding too". You were breaking the law and just because everyone was doing it doesn't mean you didn't do it. I don't know guys, I just don't like thinking that sports have come to a point where people feel they have to cheat to be the best (even if that is true).

  10. #10
    SilentRider FrankBattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harlond
    I'm still following the racing news but trying to avoid the doping news, which is hard. I have no personal need or requirement for the peleton to be clean and I'm just sorry when they get caught, when you get right down to it. Like El Diablo, I'm convinced they're all doing it, and as long as they're not risking immediate death in doing it, I don't care. I'm 100% certain WADA is not going to make the world a better place, so I wish they'd just shup up about it.

    Addressing Floyd in particular, I'd be happy if he prevails in his case, and if he doesn't (and even if he does), I'm sorry he got caught. I am generally unpersuaded that anything he might have done conferred on him an unfair advantage over any other rider. Until persuaded otherwise, I consider him the legitimate and deserving winner of the race. He rode a great race, he rode with guts and panache, and it was a great tour. The moralistic posturing of Pound, McQuaid, and LeFevre makes me sick.
    I guess in a way, I agree. I wasn't under an illusions that pros didn't use something ..

    But I wanted to believe. I always wondered if Basso, Armstrong, Ullrich et al doped. I enjoyed the bliss of not having confirmation. But the confirmation sort of blew it .. a bit. It was more of an "aww ****" moment than a surprise. I'd prefer that they all race clean. Or better yet, I'd prefer that if they doped, only the culprits and their doctors know. These revelations and confirmations just .. you know, ruin the whole thing.

    For example, I always suspected that Lance wasn't clean. But there was that little bit of well-he-didn't-have-to-go-and-blow-it-for-me-by-getting-caught-and-he-is-at-least-someone-I-can-root-for
    thing.

    Same with Floyd. He doesn't count calories (he says), he drinks beer and liquor; He is NOT the media darling that Lance is .. I could almost relate to him. Then this. *sigh*

    Whether he's really guilty or not, the fact that so many others do it doesn't look good for him. If all this is a diabolical setup, they couldn't have picked a better time to cast enormous doubt.

    *shrug*

    I'll still root for Hincapie and Backstedt. They are dropped so often, they can't be doping .. right?

  11. #11
    SilentRider FrankBattle's Avatar
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    The american judicial system and ethics are mutually exclusive.

  12. #12
    semifreddo amartuerer 'nother's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harlond
    I don't want to be snarky, but if that's how you feel, shouldn't you keep them away from professional sports of every type?
    This is what we do, currently. There's really no appeal when you realize that cheating, doping specifically, is so rampant. We stick to individual and personal achievements and don't bother much with what's on TV.

    I have only recently gotten into cycling, and somehow I was allowed to become a fan without completing my thesis in Bicycle Racing History...so I had no idea it was so dirty; I thought (hoped) I had found a decent pro sport worthy of my attention but it looks to be pretty much the same as the other crap.
    Can you pass the test?
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  13. #13
    more ape than man timmhaan's Avatar
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    i have lost a bit of interest in the pro-level but i've been more interested in the local racing scene now. i know that my cat 4\5 buddies are clean because half of them have pot bellies and kids in junior high school. so, at least, i can enjoy the sport on my own terms and with people in the same boat as me.

  14. #14
    Wher'd u Get That Jacket? flythebike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmhaan
    i have lost a bit of interest in the pro-level but i've been more interested in the local racing scene now. i know that my cat 4\5 buddies are clean because half of them have pot bellies and kids in junior high school. so, at least, i can enjoy the sport on my own terms and with people in the same boat as me.
    Yeah I mean nobody is likely to dope at that level.

    I'm 36 and about to cat up to 2 and I worry about it a little. There is even a guy on our team (just joined) who is coming off a 2 year ban for steroids.

    When I heard he was on the team (he is really really friggin' good) I was happy we got a ringer but sad for his past. Just hope he is clean now.

    I'm not interested in doping to get better. I still have a lot of improvement to make and a (little) pot bellie to lose - doping isn't going to help me really - I just need to train harder/better/smarter.

    But yeah I'm trying to focus more on my own racing although I still enjoy watching cycling dot tv, I feel like the bubble burst there.
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  15. #15
    SilentRider FrankBattle's Avatar
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    what is it about the road to purgatory being paved with good intentions. I don't think Ullrich meant to dope either. But 6 years finishing 2nd to 1 man has got to take its toll on one's .. armor.

    Afterall, doping done right is good, if you don't get caught, yes?

  16. #16
    Shut Up and Ride domestique's Avatar
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    Like I stated earlier in another thread: There are two races in Pro Cycling.....

    The one on the pavement and the one in the lab. You have to win both to become a champion and STAY a champion.
    do·mes·tique (dms-tk) n.
    A member of a competitive bicycle-racing team whose role is to assist the team leader, as by setting the pace.

    C'Dale Six13 (Record 08), Olmo Antares (Record/Chorus 06)

  17. #17
    SilentRider FrankBattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by domestique
    Like I stated earlier in another thread: There are two races in Pro Cycling.....

    The one on the pavement and the one in the lab. You have to win both to become a champion and STAY a champion.
    do we need to see the one in the lab? if they are good enough to cheat, why not be good enough not to be detected? At some level, I don't think it's the fact that they are cheating that's a bummer. I suspect it's the fact they don't have the balls to keep it on the DL rather than ruin a good thing.

  18. #18
    Señor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmkurdone
    Well, I have to disagree with the majority of people on this subject. I race D1 Cross Country and I have to say, if the majority of people in my sport were doping, it would be so frustrating that I would have to quit. Some will say "well you could just dope too", but to me, any form of cheating is just wrong. I would rather take 50th place clean then 1st dirty. I know that racing bikes is how these guys make their living and I do not, but still....

    Integrity means a lot to me and I don't think the "everyone is doing it, so it's okay" excuse flies with me. It reminds me of this (although on a completely different level). If everyone is speeding on the freeway and you get pulled over, you can't tell the cop "But everyone else was speeding too". You were breaking the law and just because everyone was doing it doesn't mean you didn't do it. I don't know guys, I just don't like thinking that sports have come to a point where people feel they have to cheat to be the best (even if that is true).
    I agree with you, and share your sentiment, but have to note that you're fortunate that you participate in a sport where there isn't a monetary incentive to dope. Any sport where the top athletes can earn more in a season than the average working person can expect to earn in a lifetime is going to be ripe for cheating.
    The search for inner peace continues...

  19. #19
    more ape than man timmhaan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAZorro
    Any sport where the top athletes can earn more in a season than the average working person can expect to earn in a lifetime is going to be ripe for cheating.
    i don't even think it necessarily has to do with money either. it could be respect from peers (ironic way of earning respect, huh?), admiration, praise, personal glory, etc. or maybe someone just has to win and will do whatever it takes.

    if the reward is big enough cheating seems to always get in there. high school atheletes have taken steriods to excel at sports afterall and they're not earning a dime from it (unless of course they get drafted to a pro-team after graduation).

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