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  1. #1
    Senior Member Hill Climber's Avatar
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    Who's gonna cast the first stone?

    Here's a question:
    There is a rider that won five Tours at what is accepted as the beginning of the EPO era, yet he is never really mentioned on this board, in the mags, or in the papers as using PEDs. I won't use his name because I'm not accusing him of anything. BUT, if everyone is going to bust on Riis for his HCT level, Ullrich, Pantani, Lance, Landis, Basso, et al, then how can you not call into question he who can't be named and many others before him who admitted using various substances? Even the great LeMond, who by his own admission was as pure as the driven snow, says the drug era began in 1991. It must have because that's when people started beating him.
    Anyway, why is it that most fans seem to only have this holier than thou revelation over the last decade?

  2. #2
    Used to be a climber.. GuitarWizard's Avatar
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    Yeah, Indurain wasn't too bad....
    1999 Trek 2500 - hit by a car on it in May, 2011 and currently bikeless

  3. #3
    Wher'd u Get That Jacket? flythebike's Avatar
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    I think people respect Indurain. He's a nice guy, he doesn't have a big mouth, so people leave him alone. I've definitely heard people I know say they think he used EPO. Who knows? One thing is certain, he had a nice incremental rise to the top. He grew and grew, worked a lot for Pedro Delgado, and then became a TdF winner himself. So you can't say he just got awesome and came from nowhere.
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  4. #4
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flythebike
    I think people respect Indurain. He's a nice guy, he doesn't have a big mouth, so people leave him alone. I've definitely heard people I know say they think he used EPO. Who knows? One thing is certain, he had a nice incremental rise to the top. He grew and grew, worked a lot for Pedro Delgado, and then became a TdF winner himself. So you can't say he just got awesome and came from nowhere.
    It seems that with his VO2 Max of 94, the concensus seems to be that while some are genetically gifted, this guy was more of a physiologic freak of nature. That probably helps folks believe that he didn't need the juice.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  5. #5
    Senior Member Hill Climber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete
    It seems that with his VO2 Max of 94, the concensus seems to be that while some are genetically gifted, this guy was more of a physiologic freak of nature. That probably helps folks believe that he didn't need the juice.

    Ahhhh, but by the same token, a certain Texan has also been deemed a "genetic freak" by physicians, but yet his is the first name cast upon the altar of sin by the haters.

  6. #6
    Aut Vincere Aut Mori Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Climber
    Ahhhh, but by the same token, a certain Texan has also been deemed a "genetic freak" by physicians, but yet his is the first name cast upon the altar of sin by the haters.
    Armstrong's VO2 max has been reported at 83...about 10 less than LeMond, and 6 less than Indurain IIRC.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus
    Armstrong's VO2 max has been reported at 83...about 10 less than LeMond, and 6 less than Indurain IIRC.
    lemond is ugly and fat

  8. #8
    Senior Member Hill Climber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus
    Armstrong's VO2 max has been reported at 83...about 10 less than LeMond, and 6 less than Indurain IIRC.

    Who among us can boast the same?
    My point is this: if any average punter can hold the wheel of any of these guys, come forth and cry foul. Until then, enjoy the show. Were you (and I use "you" in the collective sense) entertained? That's really the whole point of professional racing. If you know someone in your local event was jacked up, lodge a complaint. That made a difference in your life. But as for the pro peleton, don't hold these guys up to be choir boys and don't think doping is a recent blight on the sport.

  9. #9
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
    lemond is ugly and fat
    And bitter. Don't forget really, really bitter.

    He does seem to have the highest maximal food consumption (VfoodMax) of all former Tour champions, though...
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  10. #10
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Climber
    Who among us can boast the same?
    My point is this: if any average punter can hold the wheel of any of these guys, come forth and cry foul. Until then, enjoy the show. Were you (and I use "you" in the collective sense) entertained? That's really the whole point of professional racing. If you know someone in your local event was jacked up, lodge a complaint. That made a difference in your life. But as for the pro peleton, don't hold these guys up to be choir boys and don't think doping is a recent blight on the sport.
    There's truth to that. People lay flowers and water bottles and stuff at the Tom Simpson memorial on Mont Ventoux, and the guy died on that climb from the pile of drugs he was on. Amazing the power of cycling fans to (selectively) look the other way.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  11. #11
    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete
    There's truth to that. People lay flowers and water bottles and stuff at the Tom Simpson memorial on Mont Ventoux, and the guy died on that climb from the pile of drugs he was on. Amazing the power of cycling fans to (selectively) look the other way.
    and what about how people worship Pantani too?

  12. #12
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
    and what about how people worship Pantani too?
    The list goes on. If anything, watching young healthy people die should be a motivator to actually do something about doping culture in pro cycling. But no...
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  13. #13
    Senior Member classic1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete
    There's truth to that. People lay flowers and water bottles and stuff at the Tom Simpson memorial on Mont Ventoux, and the guy died on that climb from the pile of drugs he was on. Amazing the power of cycling fans to (selectively) look the other way.
    It was the 60's man. Everyone was on drugs....

    Looking the other way has absolutely nothing to do with it. Tom Simpson was respected or even loved by almost everyone involved in cycling. He still is, in Belgium, in the UK, in France, and for very good reasons. I'll tell you a story about Tom Simpson. It might be anecdotal but it fits in with his character. One Christmas Rik Van Looy was asked to go to a hospital childrens ward in Belgium to meet and cheer up some terminally ill kids. He was too busy. Tom Simpson heard about this. The bloke went and brought a stack of toys and went in and visited them himself. No fanfare, no publicity. I've read about him clowning and making time for the kids during afternoon sessions at six day races as well. By all accounts Tom Simpson was an absolute gentlemen.

    That is why people still put flowers on Tom Simpsons memorial on Mont Ventoux.

  14. #14
    Aut Vincere Aut Mori Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by classic1
    It was the 60's man. Everyone was on drugs....

    Looking the other way has absolutely nothing to do with it. Tom Simpson was respected or even loved by almost everyone involved in cycling. He still is, in Belgium, in the UK, in France, and for very good reasons. I'll tell you a story about Tom Simpson. It might be anecdotal but it fits in with his character. One Christmas Rik Van Looy was asked to go to a hospital childrens ward in Belgium to meet and cheer up some terminally ill kids. He was too busy. Tom Simpson heard about this. The bloke went and brought a stack of toys and went in and visited them himself. No fanfare, no publicity. I've read about him clowning and making time for the kids during afternoon sessions at six day races as well. By all accounts Tom Simpson was an absolute gentlemen.

    That is why people still put flowers on Tom Simpsons memorial on Mont Ventoux.

  15. #15
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    My own ignorance of history got the better of me, and I wasn't alive for the 60's so I know I don't get it 100%. But if such a well-loved pro cyclist dies because of a problem, it would seem a more fitting tribute to actually face the problem, and I guess the impression that I get is that nobody really thought the drugs were a big deal.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  16. #16
    Elitist Jackass Smoothie104's Avatar
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    people still don't,

    the dopers get monuments and shrines, the guys who come clean are labled as liars, jealous losers, and has beens.
    "You should already be aware that riding with people who steer with their elbows, stick food to the top tube of their frames and ride around in dick togs is not a great idea." -- Classic1

  17. #17
    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoothie104
    people still don't,

    the dopers get monuments and shrines, the guys who come clean are labled as liars, jealous losers, and has beens.
    If that's the case then it just seems to confirm that notion that everyone's doping (or at least most)

  18. #18
    DocRay
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
    lemond is ugly and fat
    Let's see how you look at his age with his metabolic disease.

    What do you people do for fun? Laugh at homeless people and the sick at hospitals?

  19. #19
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
    lemond is ugly and fat
    And he'd still drop any of our ' pretty' and skinny' arses!

    Considering all the slack that most cycling fan's cut for likes of blatent cheaters like Pantani, you'd think that we'd have a bit more respect for the first American to win the TdF. Despite the less than gracious remarks toward our 'beloved' Lance, Greg is, and was, a great champion. He came back from an injury that would have kept most of us from even riding a bike again to win the greatest cycling event in the world.

  20. #20
    elitist jerk daytonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
    And he'd still drop any of our ' pretty' and skinny' arses!

    Considering all the slack that most cycling fan's cut for likes of blatent cheaters like Pantani, you'd think that we'd have a bit more respect for the first American to win the TdF. Despite the less than gracious remarks toward our 'beloved' Lance, Greg is, and was, a great champion. He came back from an injury that would have kept most of us from even riding a bike again to win the greatest cycling event in the world.
    +1
    I feel like a soiled kleenex dropped in the gutter in the red-light district of Paris.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Dubbayoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill Climber
    Here's a question:
    Even the great LeMond, who by his own admission was as pure as the driven snow, says the drug era began in 1991. It must have because that's when people started beating him.
    Anyway, why is it that most fans seem to only have this holier than thou revelation over the last decade?
    Strange that Lemond says the drug era started right around his last Tour, despite Pedro Delgado testing positive for probenecid, a masking agent, during the 1988 Tour de France. You have to assume drugs came way before masking agents.
    Last edited by Dubbayoo; 10-29-06 at 08:08 PM.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
    And he'd still drop any of our ' pretty' and skinny' arses!

    Considering all the slack that most cycling fan's cut for likes of blatent cheaters like Pantani, you'd think that we'd have a bit more respect for the first American to win the TdF. Despite the less than gracious remarks toward our 'beloved' Lance, Greg is, and was, a great champion. He came back from an injury that would have kept most of us from even riding a bike again to win the greatest cycling event in the world.

    I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm really sick of Lemond's whining and bellyaching. As if he is
    completely free from "sin"...

  23. #23
    Senior Member socalrider's Avatar
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    I think Indurain is also respected because he paid his dues in the peloton being Delagdo's workhorse before he won his 1st TDF..

  24. #24
    Senior Member Talewinds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocRay
    Let's see how you look at his age with his metabolic disease.

    What do you people do for fun? Laugh at homeless people and the sick at hospitals?
    Figures...

    Of course not, but he's still ugly and fat. And he's certainly not homeless, have you seen his mountain lodge/ compound/ ski resort? He lives like royalty!

  25. #25
    Whateverthehell Chucklehead's Avatar
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    he's spanish. come on.
    "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return." - Leonardo daVinci

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