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  1. #1
    100% USDA certified the beef's Avatar
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    Could I really be a Cat 3/4 racer?

    Inspired by hiromian's similar thread, I decided to head on over to the Bicycle Speed and Power calculator to find out my wattage output for a certain amount of time. I punched in my best time for a local climb, a 0.8 mile ascent from the Burke/Gilman trail up to where I live, at an average 5.0% grade. My best attempt has seen me take the climb in 3 minutes 52 seconds, or an average 12.8 mph (I seriously felt like I would puke at the end of that one).

    The power calculator at http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm approximates that I put out about 280 watts, assuming 0 wind, my 20 lb steel road bike, pedaling at a cadence of 90 rpm. I tried a few other calculators. http://www.mne.psu.edu/lamancusa/Pro.../bikecalc1.htm is more conservative, putting me at 264 watts.

    I weigh 138 lbs, and I'm 16 years old. I've never raced before, but I'm in shape and one of the better recreational climbers I know. 138 lbs = 62.6 kg.

    280 watts / 62.6 kg = 4.5 watts / kg
    264 watts / 62.6 kg = 4.25 watts / kg

    Curious to see how I'd stack up, I checked out the 'power profile' chart that's been floating around. http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/...profile_v4.gif Assuming that I could keep this up for five minutes, that'd put me in the 'Cat 3' category. Maybe the 'Cat 4' category would be more accurate, since I only kept it up for 4 minutes in the actual ride and I probably would've slowed after that. But the thing is, up until now I've been too intimidated and doubtful to even think I could compete in a bottom-rung Cat 5 race.

    Are these numbers any indication of anything? They're taken from a hill climb, and I don't know how well that translates into all around power. I'm light, which gives me an advantage on the climb.

    And of course, I know this power profile chart I referred to is just sort of a questionable benchmark. The wattage calculators are anything but exact, too - but I have nothing better to go by.

    I'm wondering if I may have a shot at this racing deal, or at least be able to be proud of these numbers. It was certainly eye-opening and encouraging when I saw where I fell on the chart. Or am I missing something that puts me back in the category I belong in, "Untrained non-racer"?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by the beef; 01-15-07 at 07:13 PM.

  2. #2
    Aut Vincere Aut Mori Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Only one way to find out buddy

  3. #3
    Theodore Roosevelt's idol TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
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    IMO, I'd trust analyticcycling's power calculator over other online ones. When I plug the numbers in on that, it puts you at 247W, for a w/kg ratio of 3.94.

    Anyway, that's really not important. You won't know how you'll stack up until you actually go out and race. There's a lot more to being a good racer than having power.

    edit: also, you say after 4 minutes effort you were about ready to puke. If that's the case, I doubt you could hold that effort for 5 minutes. Your 5min w/kg ratio, according to the chart, is probably low cat4 high cat5. not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to be realistic
    Masochism is a training adaptation.

  4. #4
    Aut Vincere Aut Mori Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
    There's a lot more to being a good racer than having power.
    Lies, all lies. The minute I bought a PowerTap USCF upgraded me to CAT-1, and I'm having to fight off Pro Tour team contracts left and right

  5. #5
    Royal Grand Exalted Pooba smoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
    IMO, I'd trust analyticcycling's power calculator over other online ones. When I plug the numbers in on that, it puts you at 247W, for a w/kg ratio of 3.94.

    Anyway, that's really not important. You won't know how you'll stack up until you actually go out and race. There's a lot more to being a good racer than having power.
    concur. first, i think those are pretty good numbers for someone as young as you. second, numbers aren't important when you go try to beat somebody. when you get to a race, it's your heart and your desire that matter. work hard, train hard, and go try racing - if you get the bit in your teeth, the only number that's gonna matter is your place. nike is right - just do it

    -smoke
    'In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, "Make us your slaves, but feed us." '

    -Fyodor Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor

  6. #6
    100% USDA certified the beef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
    Anyway, that's really not important. You won't know how you'll stack up until you actually go out and race. There's a lot more to being a good racer than having power.
    True enough. More of my question is whether these numbers really mean anything - and what they mean in terms of my power output. One question for example, If I can put out x watts on this hill for 5 minutes, does that mean I'd be able to do the same on the flat? I guess I'm looking for encouragement, in a way.

  7. #7
    Aut Vincere Aut Mori Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the beef
    True enough. More of my question is whether these numbers really mean anything - and what they mean in terms of my power output. One question for example, If I can put out x watts on this hill for 5 minutes, does that mean I'd be able to do the same on the flat? I guess I'm looking for encouragement, in a way.
    Race.

    Don't speculate. You're riding a lot, and you're not slow, so just go race.

  8. #8
    100% USDA certified the beef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
    edit: also, you say after 4 minutes effort you were about ready to puke. If that's the case, I doubt you could hold that effort for 5 minutes. Your 5min w/kg ratio, according to the chart, is probably low cat4 high cat5. not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to be realistic
    True - that was for my PR run of 3:52. I did a repeat the next week, taking a pace that felt a lot better - got a 4:02 and did not feel like puking , so yeah. When I nabbed the faster time I remember averaging 16/17 mph on the last stretch, at probably 4-5 percent grade. It was insane.

    Thanks, though. I appreciate it.
    Last edited by the beef; 01-15-07 at 07:27 PM.

  9. #9
    Royal Grand Exalted Pooba smoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the beef
    True enough. More of my question is whether these numbers really mean anything - and what they mean in terms of my power output. One question for example, If I can put out x watts on this hill for 5 minutes, does that mean I'd be able to do the same on the flat? I guess I'm looking for encouragement, in a way.
    do they mean anything? sure. are they accurate? we don't really know. you want encouragement? well, i think you're doing pretty damn well for somebody as young as you are, who doesn't have an organized, coherent training plan. are you good enough to be a cat 5 or 4 or 3 racer? quit thinking - do. go find out. i think you're gonna be surprised

    -smoke
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  10. #10
    Slow'n'Aero DrWJODonnell's Avatar
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    My friend, you are young, you are in one of the best cycling cities in the states (for both year round cycling as well as cycling awareness and support), and you have an interest. Go for it. I promise you that unless you suffer major incident, you will only get better. You might not win your first race, but don't be afraid of it either. Let us know how it goes. (By the way, what stretch of the Burke are you talking about? I am trying to think of a stretch that has any sort of lengthy 4% grade and I am not really thinking of it)

  11. #11
    100% USDA certified the beef's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell
    My friend, you are young, you are in one of the best cycling cities in the states (for both year round cycling as well as cycling awareness and support), and you have an interest. Go for it. I promise you that unless you suffer major incident, you will only get better. You might not win your first race, but don't be afraid of it either. Let us know how it goes. (By the way, what stretch of the Burke are you talking about? I am trying to think of a stretch that has any sort of lengthy 4% grade and I am not really thinking of it)
    Thanks a lot for the comments. They really mean a lot. Who knows, I may give this thing a shot.

    As for the Burke-Gilman.. I get off at Third Place Books and then ride north-ish for a few blocks. Then I go up a curvy/winding road called Perkins Way. It's a sweet climb. I live up in Shoreline, so it's my only way to finish off a ride or get home. Feels especially nasty after a longer ride.

  12. #12
    Cat WTF
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    xxx (or even 400 <snicker> ) watts does not make you automatically win a race or even be a pack fill. Go race and you'll find out soon enough if you can be a cat 3/4 racer.

  13. #13
    Style-challenged platypus's Avatar
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    Considering the 5->4 upgrade just takes surviving 10 mass starts, yes you too can be a cat 4!

    4 to 3, however, will take some results. Seriously, go race already! It's fun!

  14. #14
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    I hate to be a nag, but you need to go the full 5 minutes for that to be applicable. It's a V02 max indicator interval, so that last 1min that you're missing is going to be pretty important in a test so short.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  15. #15
    Senior Member RockyMtnMerlin's Avatar
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    Hey: Join the American Cycling Association in Colorado and start out as a Cat 4 (they have no fives). Plus, you could even race in a bunch of NW races as they have a reciprocity agreement with the Oregon Bicycle Racing Association.

  16. #16
    Senior Member spunky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the beef
    True - that was for my PR run of 3:52. I did a repeat the next week, taking a pace that felt a lot better - got a 4:02 and did not feel like puking , so yeah. When I nabbed the faster time I remember averaging 16/17 mph on the last stretch, at probably 4-5 percent grade. It was insane.

    Thanks, though. I appreciate it.
    Here's a comparison, I did a cat 4/5 RR last August where we had to climb a 6% grade for 2.5 miles.....three times. This hill starts off steep for the first mile and then eases to around 3% for about 1/2-3/4 of a mile and then goes up in grade until the top. The first two times we climbed it, we climbed the steeper sections around 12-13 mph and the flatter section about 16-17 mph. On the last climb we took off up the steepest grades about 14 mph and the easier grade at 18-19 mph. This was the pace of the leaders. It all depends upon how strong of cat 4/5 climbers are in your area.
    running makes your legs nasty. Cycling makes them look a weird way that i like.

  17. #17
    base training heretic Squint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the beef
    I weigh 138 lbs, and I'm 16 years old. I've never raced before, but I'm in shape and one of the better recreational climbers I know. 138 lbs = 62.6 kg.

    280 watts / 62.6 kg = 4.5 watts / kg
    264 watts / 62.6 kg = 4.25 watts / kg
    I think most good Cat 3/4/5 can do around 5.25-5.5 W/kg for a single all-out 4 min climbing effort. 4-4.5 W/kg is more like their 60 min power.

    That doesn't mean you shouldn't enter a Cat 5 race. The sandbagging winner of a Cat 4 or 5 race would be close to those numbers though.

  18. #18
    . botto's Avatar
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    anyone can be a cat 4/3 racer. cat 2, that's something else.

  19. #19
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto
    anyone can be a cat 4/3 racer. cat 2, that's something else.
    Yup.
    5 to 4, all you need is 10 races and don't even need results.
    4 to 3, all you need is 25 races and don't even need results, just a finish in the pack 20x

    So if you race 40x (allow a few races for mechanicals/crashes and what) this year and follow the above instructions, you are a 3. Simple, eh?

  20. #20
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    Those stats are pretty good.

    Now, all you have to do is find a 4-minute uphill race, with no corners....

    Bob

  21. #21
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    The fact that this thread exists is evidence that R600DuraAce should never have been allowed to 1. Own a Powertap and 2. Post on this forum.

    In my meager amount of racing experience, I've definitely seen that being the strongest rider out there will only get you so far. In fact, a lot of the strongest riders are the ones who end up pulling the whole race because they're not thinking about conserving energy. Then, when it comes down to the sprint at the line, there's a huge component of strategy and luck that goes into it.

    So the bottom line is, just get a license and start racing. Just because some anonymous yahoos on the web tell you something doesn't mean it'll bear out. Hell, you might do your first race and hate it. Maybe you'll find you need more practice in a pack. Maybe you'll excel.

    There's only one way to find out, and it ain't on this here interweb.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  22. #22
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    The numbers tell you that you have enough fitness to give it a go. Now go race. Odds are strong that even if you have 4.5 w/kg at FT, you'll get your butt handed to you. In addition to good FT power, you need that ability to put out 1000 watts for 15 seconds, when you've got to close a little gap at 32mph, and to recover very quickly.

    You can have the ability to go at 4.5 w/kg for an hour, but if you can't go substantially above that for 2 minutes, recover, and repeat, you're going to struggle in a mass start race. Actually racing will develop that.

    you need to know how to corner, you need to know where to be in the pack, you need to know which wheel to follow, you need to know who to chase and who to let go, you need to know when to work and when to not, etc, etc, etc.

    You definitely have the motor to get started (assuming the data's correct). Go race, learn how to race, develop the other aspects of fitness that are important for racing, and you may have real potential. Only one way to find out.

    So, no, you're not a Cat 3, not even close. Do you have the potential to move up to Cat 3 , and maybe beyond fairly quickly, depends on how bad you want it.

  23. #23
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    High wattage riders get beat by lower wattage (smart racers) every week as stated above. Infact if it wasent for the high watt racers who would I have to pull me around all day? Right now I am coming back from a 6 year layoff and know that if the race is hilly my butt is getting owned. Get me on the flats and even with hard surges I can hang with the CAT IIIs around my area..... Hang on the back that is.

  24. #24
    Race to train jrennie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YMCA
    Yup.
    5 to 4, all you need is 10 races and don't even need results.
    4 to 3, all you need is 25 races and don't even need results, just a finish in the pack 20x

    So if you race 40x (allow a few races for mechanicals/crashes and what) this year and follow the above instructions, you are a 3. Simple, eh?
    4-3 requires 20 points OR 25 starts with 10 top ten's OR 20 pack finish with a field of at least 50

  25. #25
    Where is he going?
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    Your 16 and in Seattle. I have no comments on power output but I will give you a place to start.

    http://www.wsbaracing.com/juniors.asp

    I would suggest finding a team and racing with some juniors to start with. This will give you an idea where you stack up with your peers.

    I am partial to the RAD racing guys but there are 5 teams listed on the WSBA page. All of which work to develop you as person and a racer.

    Best of luck, see you at the races.
    ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^

    Let him go, he'll die in the mountains. (You know the movie)

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