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View Poll Results: Optygen--What do you think?
Snake oil. Don't waste your money.
26
33.77%
Meh. Indifferent.
15
19.48%
Maybe helps a little.
17
22.08%
Wow! this is great stuff!
19
24.68%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

Optygen: Any opinions?

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Old 01-30-07, 01:44 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
That's cool then. I tend to work under the assumption that supplements that actually work are usually illegal. If you say it works and is legal, I might just give it a try.
For what it's worth, First Endurance/Optygen is now a sponsor for Discovery. Some of the Health Net guys have used it and endorsed it.

I like it...
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Old 01-30-07, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
Simply, I ride further at a faster speed...if I really want to crank, my HR does not go up as quickly. I notice this more in the morning if I am doing an anerobic trainer workout, or going for a ride. Where my hr has been down due to sleep and I get up, for me the warm up, getting my HR up and getting things opened up for a ride is easier if I use this stuff.

Could all be in my head and I have not measured it specifically, but I do note that I don't get to lactate HR as quickly. I can work harder on my trainer, too.

Your mileage may vary.

I know a couple of guys who I sometimes ride with that are subject, on their jobs to spot drug testing. They have used this without a problem.

This is in no way a warranty...I tried it and liked the results. That's about it.
If you take 100 people and give them something to ingest with a claimed effect, about 1/3 will swear that it works, 1/3 with swear that it had a negative effect, 1/3 will claim no effect, regardless of what it is.

This has been tested repeatedly, the placebo effect, and it's the basis for the supplements industry and the snake oil industry for hundreds of years. As long as the stuff is not toxic, no one cares. Of course you won't score on a drug test, it has no medicinal ingredients.

https://skepdic.com/placebo.html
 
Old 01-30-07, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DocRay
If you take 100 people and give them something to ingest with a claimed effect, about 1/3 will swear that it works, 1/3 with swear that it had a negative effect, 1/3 will claim no effect, regardless of what it is.

This has been tested repeatedly, the placebo effect, and it's the basis for the supplements industry and the snake oil industry for hundreds of years. As long as the stuff is not toxic, no one cares. Of course you won't score on a drug test, it has no medicinal ingredients.

https://skepdic.com/placebo.html
So what?

I know several riders who ride at a level significanlty higher than most out here that like it.

Use it, don't use it...
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Old 01-30-07, 05:49 PM
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To a certain degree I agree with DocRay that some of the stuff we take is just for the 'mental' boost it provides. But mental or not the boost is there and if it's doing it's job through science or because I clicked my heals three times I don't care, as long as I think it's working.
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Old 01-30-07, 09:03 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by DrPete
Strangely resembles post #5. But thanks for being patronizing. N=17 with relatively small differences between groups is the sign of a study lacking statistical power--hardly a slam-dunk one way or the other. But I'm sure you already knew that.
You do remember that you are posting in BF, yes?

Pretty sure this means butkus to majority of the readers.
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Old 01-30-07, 09:17 PM
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As some here have stated, eating right, training right and getting good quality sleep are very important. I use Hammer HEED and Recoverite as well as Hammer gels. The Recoverite works well, and yes I could get the same amount of needed elements by eating a balanced meal after a hard workout. The problem is two fold, first my stomach couldn't handle all that solid food at that time, and second it would take to long to prepare it. I can drink a bottle, get what I need then eat when I'm able. Supplements can be both helpful and useful.

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Old 01-30-07, 09:17 PM
  #32  
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Hey DrPete:

I have actually used the stuff. I cannot quantitatively say that it it works. I'm pretty sure it doesn't not work. I am not care free enough to do a control, of sorts, on myself .. I continue to eat properly, get adequate sleep and train hard when I can when I'm on the stuff. I was on the bike less frequently in 2006, but when I did ride AND was on the stuff, I was fresher for longer.

I don't race, so I can't speak to the competitive edge.

I actually experiment with a few other things, just to see the effect on my ability to endure. When I do, I cycle on for 1 month. Then off for 3 weeks. Then I may or may not repeat, depending on a whole host of reasons .. love of my kidneys being a primary one.

Said other things: Flax Seed Oil, Potassium, Calcium Stearate, Caffeine, Magnessium, SportsLegs .. and on occassion, Sucrose.
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Old 01-31-07, 12:37 AM
  #33  
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Placebo affect
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Old 02-10-07, 06:59 PM
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I agree, it's most probably the placebo effect. I don't think N=17 is all that bad. Testing for only two weeks seems the weak part of the study. I've been taking high doses of resveratrol for a few months and for what it's worth I think/know I am getting stronger. The problem is N=1 is not worth much. Placebo's are very powerful. For what it's worth, here is some more info to make it a N=18 from Outside Mag on Optygen:

Bodywork: Lab Rat
Revving Up
Can a performance supplement be legal, healthy, and effective? The Lab Rat pops a fistful to find out.

By Nick Heil
THERE COMES A TIME in every athlete's life when he's tempted to add a little something special to his training regimen, and these days the possibilities are many and creepy: andro, HGH, EPO—maybe a little synthetic testosterone, Floyd? Since I'm committed to keeping it safe—and legal—high-octane bulk builders are out. Plus I'm not after a bod like the latest James Bond's. I have a multisport race coming up in February, and what I really want is to transcend my standard performance as a grimacing mid-packer. All I need is enough extra voltage to get me there.

A while back I heard about a supplement called Optygen, made by First Endurance, that would ostensibly improve my lactate threshold and VO2 max by as much as 20 percent. What's more, Optygen, a new sponsor of Team Discovery, has been enthusiastically endorsed by Tour de France veterans like David Zabriskie. I called up First Endurance cofounder Mike Fogarty to ask whether Optygen might work for me. "Oh, yeah," he said. "After a week or two it will take you to the next level." Sweet!

First Endurance set me up on a course of Optygen ($50 for a one-month supply) and a few of the company's other products, including multivitamins and a high-tech recovery-beverage mix called Ultragen, which replaced my previous low-tech recovery drink, called margarita. The weeklong loading phase required me to choke down six pills a day, plus three daily multivitamins. After a week, I eased off to a slightly less gaggable three capsules a day, but that was still a total of six. I knew the stuff was supposed to keep me young, but the pill diet was making me feel old.

Optygen relies on an alchemy of ingredients that theoretically helps your body cope with stress while simultaneously aiding the conversion of oxygen into fuel. Its punch comes from a pair of herbs—rhodiola and cordyceps—and the mineral chromium. Rhodiola's ability to help alleviate the effects of altitude has been touted for decades by Sherpas who chew the herb like tobacco while working on Everest. Cordyceps is used in traditional Chinese medicine as an energy booster and sex aid. Chromium, an essential mineral, plays a key role in glucose metabolism and insulin regulation.

Since few formal controls exist for supplements (they aren't regulated by the FDA, and double-blind studies are expensive), I ran it by Dave Ellis, a registered dietitian and conditioning specialist in Colorado Springs who works regularly with pro athletes. Ellis preaches about the virtues of real food but isn't against supplements. He thought there was some legitimacy to the Optygen formula, though he couldn't say if it would work "synergistically," as First Endurance claimed. "You probably don't need to use them as much as they'd like you to use them," he counseled. "Exercise first, then a good diet, then supplements."

Fair enough, but my workouts were kicking my ass, and I was eating right. So after my Optygen-loading phase, I headed out to a local trail—a 3.5-mile loop that features two punishing climbs—to see if anything had changed. I'd been running the route regularly as a kind of yardstick to measure my fitness gains, and my best time to date was 34:45. I ticked off the first half of the route at a steady tempo, but on the final hill I felt... terrible. Of course, I always suffered here, but what a letdown. When I finished, I dutifully checked my watch. I'd felt slow as lava, but there was my time flashing back at me: 31 minutes and nine seconds.

Then came my bike ride. On a warm, sunny Saturday in November, a few friends and I rode from Santa Fe to Taos—a stunningly scenic 75-mile trip with a spirit-crushing climb at the end. On the final push I was feeling good, so I dropped the hammer. Midway up, I looked back to discover that my friends were nowhere in sight. I topped out with enough time to change a flat before they showed up.

Was it the result of the Optygen? It's impossible to say. All I know is that I felt great. Hell, I didn't go to the next level; I skipped a level altogether. Either the stuff kicked in or I just experienced an extremely powerful—and rewarding— placebo effect. If the same thing happens come race day, I won't care either way.
https://outside.away.com/outside/body...pplements.html
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Old 02-11-07, 07:24 PM
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Two of the ingredients are adaptogens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptogen

The guidelines created for a herb to be considered an adaptogen are:
  1. It must cause only minimal disorders in the body's physiological functions;
  2. It must increase the body's resistance to adverse influences not by a specific action but by a wide range of physical, chemical, and biochemical factors;
  3. It must have an overall normalizing effect, improving all kinds of conditions and aggravating none
Notice that Cordyceps and Rhodiola Rosea appear in wiki's article.
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Old 03-19-07, 11:11 AM
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I started my optygem today. I'll give report back after I go through the 'load' phase then weekly as I empty the bottle. I figure one bottle should be a good enough test.
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Old 03-19-07, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by DrPete
And it seems like a pretty well-done study. There are some definite trends there, but the n is way too small to make it statistically significant. My only question is, who are these Cat 3/4 cyclists with peak power outputs of 300W? That seems a bit strange.
Impossible. That's got to be a 30 minute average.
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Old 03-19-07, 12:42 PM
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Saying all supplements are snake oil with no scientific evidence is snake oil in and of itself.

I take a number of supplements for a variety of purposes (joint pain, antioxidants, Etc) , most have been scientifically verified, some haven't. One (glucosamine) has been Chesapeake verified, dogs being pretty immune to the placebo effect.

What needs to be remembered when looking at the studies is often the results are quantified to a particular statistical "break" point. If they test 100 people and only 8 show improvement, often the study concludes that the product, based on "only" a 8% success rate, doesn't work. If the study is well controlled the question isn't really if the product works or not, it's if you might be one of the 8% it does work for.

Remember that everybody is different genetically, environmentally, and in their state of physical conditioning.

From what I've seen/read about Optygen and it's various ingredients, most of the ingredients in there have either anecdotal evidence or small study evidence to support their use. If you got the bucks you could give it a shot. It might or might not work for you, YOU/ME being the word that ought to be added on to a lot of reviews and opinions here at BF.
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Old 03-19-07, 01:27 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
I started my optygem today. I'll give report back after I go through the 'load' phase then weekly as I empty the bottle. I figure one bottle should be a good enough test.
you work on that and i'll try this stuff and post pictures of the results.
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Old 03-19-07, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DocRay
If you take 100 people and give them something to ingest with a claimed effect, about 1/3 will swear that it works, 1/3 with swear that it had a negative effect, 1/3 will claim no effect, regardless of what it is.

This has been tested repeatedly, the placebo effect, and it's the basis for the supplements industry and the snake oil industry for hundreds of years. As long as the stuff is not toxic, no one cares. Of course you won't score on a drug test, it has no medicinal ingredients.

https://skepdic.com/placebo.html
Sort of. If you gave them all steroids, regardless of their claims/expectations, I'll bet they'll all gain muscle (if they're working out) to enough of a degree that none of them can say it doesn't work. Same thing with EPO for endurance athletes. And I think THAT is the key. Drugs will make immense changes, but all these legal "supplements" may help you but it's a 1-3% change, so if you're not already at a peak state, it's not worth it.
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Old 03-19-07, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
I started my optygem today. I'll give report back after I go through the 'load' phase then weekly as I empty the bottle. I figure one bottle should be a good enough test.
FYI....if you like it, you can buy the primary ingredients separately, cordyceps and rhodiola, for a lot cheaper. I think it was Davis Phinney that said even if something is a placebo, if you think it helps you take it. You'll ride stronger.
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Old 03-19-07, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dog hair
you work on that and i'll try this stuff and post pictures of the results.
Ha! You keep your pix thank you very much!!!
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Old 03-19-07, 01:53 PM
  #43  
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I'm sticking with Oreos. Thanks though.
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Old 03-19-07, 07:51 PM
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I think supplementation is absolutely necessary if you're a serious cyclist. An athlete should seriously consider Cal/Mag, Omega 3-6-9, Zinc (actually Zinc-Magnesium Aspartate before bed), and a really good Multi. I think those are the absolute minimum. I'd also throw in extra Vitamin C, A/D, B-Complex, E, and Selenium. All this depends on the quality of your Multi though. I have a 3-a-day multi by Progressive for athletes. Iron is absolutely essential as well. I spend my money wisely I think. I've tried some recovery potions and phosphates but really stick with the anti-oxidants, healthy oils and (first and most important) the cal/mag.
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Old 03-19-07, 08:07 PM
  #45  
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Calcium/Magnesium/Zinc is also supposed to help with cramping.
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Old 03-19-07, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Stallionforce
I think supplementation is absolutely necessary if you're a serious cyclist. An athlete should seriously consider Cal/Mag, Omega 3-6-9, Zinc (actually Zinc-Magnesium Aspartate before bed), and a really good Multi. I think those are the absolute minimum. I'd also throw in extra Vitamin C, A/D, B-Complex, E, and Selenium. All this depends on the quality of your Multi though. I have a 3-a-day multi by Progressive for athletes. Iron is absolutely essential as well. I spend my money wisely I think. I've tried some recovery potions and phosphates but really stick with the anti-oxidants, healthy oils and (first and most important) the cal/mag.
You should really talk to a doc about the iron, you should never take it unless you are anemic or under doctors orders. I do agree about the other vitamins though.
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Old 03-19-07, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
You should really talk to a doc about the iron, you should never take it unless you are anemic or under doctors orders. I do agree about the other vitamins though.
+1. Unless you have some reason to supplement it (which you probably don't), then there is a risk of iron toxicity.
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Old 03-19-07, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by DrPete
+1. Unless you have some reason to supplement it (which you probably don't), then there is a risk of iron toxicity.
Well there ya have it..right from the Doctors key board!
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Old 03-19-07, 09:36 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by DamianM

Maybe training IS for wussy, R600DuraAce you should get some of this stuff. You might get out of your 3 year Cat 4 rut.
What would you suggest for a 14 year Cat 4 rut?
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Old 03-20-07, 03:11 PM
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I prefer Endurox
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