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  1. #1
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Why pulled lapped riders?

    A question in another thread, If I get dropped can I just finish at my own pace, lead me to think about the policy of pulling lapped riders. The rules clearly allow the officials discretion.

    My thought is that with the exception of a very narrow course or someone riding like a jerk, the Officals should really strive to let Cat5 racers finish. I think it's ingrained in a lot of competitive people (i.e. folks who want to race) to never quit. More demoralizing than getting dropped, is getting pulled.

    I wonder how many Cat 5's get pulled and never come back, that might have stayed with it, with the boost garnered from at least finishing?

    I understand the safety issue, but as long as the lapped rider stays to the far outside, and allows the pack to pass well before any corners, there shouldn't be any significant safety issue on most courses.

  2. #2
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    I wonder how many Cat 5's get pulled and never come back, that might have stayed with it, with the boost garnered from at least finishing?
    I think that if one less-than-optimal result, such as being pulled after you've been lapped, is so discouraging as to cause an individual to quit a sport/competition, then sooner or later they would have quit for a host of other reasons.

    Slow riders are dangerous. If you've been lapped, you're slow.
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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  3. #3
    Eternal Cat3 Rookie branman1986's Avatar
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    In my 2nd race I was sitting 8th going into the final turn, I felt very fresh and thought I could take a podium spot in the final sprint. 2 lapped riders were ahead of the pack in the 3rd turn and got mixed in the final turn. Riders 6 and on had to brake HARD allowing 1 through 5 an insurmountable lead. This prevented anyone in 6th place and on from having a chance at placing.

    A few times lapped riders were perfectly timed going through corners right as the pack went through almost causing a couple crashes. The problem is the lapped riders don't know to stay on the outside...they were without fail ALWAYS on the inside

  4. #4
    Senior Member curiouskid55's Avatar
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    The officials are concerned with the safety of all participants. Just because you are riding sensibly this lap doesnt mean you wont pull some bonehead pack thrashing move on the next one. Large groups overtaking much slower individual riders is allways dicey let alone if the group is a bunch of cat 5's. I agree that most wont(and shouldnt) quit , so pulling them gets them out of the situation with out having to experience the worst thing that can happen to you, quitting. Its just another level to work through. When i started i had basic goals in order of priority.

    1 Survive
    2 Dont crash
    3 Dont get pulled
    4 Finish
    5 Dont get dropped
    6 top 20
    7 top 10
    8 win

  5. #5
    . botto's Avatar
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    i'm guessing that the chic in red here was lapped.

  6. #6
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    How hard is it to simply instruct people if you're dropped, far outside, and let the pack through before turns. Course marshalls can easily help with the latter.

    And if these folks are too ignorant to get these simple instructions, they shouldn't be on the course in the first place, where they are a heck of a lot more likely to cause a wreck before they get dropped.

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    With the exception of a breakaway that laps the field, or "training" races, lapped riders should always be pulled for the safety of both the lapped riders and those who are still in contention. I hate it when officials let stragglers continue. I've been in breakaways that have lapped the field in crits and navigating through the stragglers is a real hazard, its even worse when the main field starts lapping dropped riders.

  8. #8
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto
    i'm guessing that the chic in red here was lapped.
    But 1) who was the most culpable, and

    2) it looks like they were all OTB

  9. #9
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    My second crit ever I don't know how I managed to, but I hung by a thread with the pack for the entire race. With one-half lap and just 2 corners to go, I saw an opening on the inside and scooted up from 35th place to 3rd place in just about 10 seconds. As the pack swung wide left to set up for a 90 degree right turn, I scooted up along the right side in perfect position to cut the corner inside of the pack and head into the final turn in first or second place.

    That's when I run up behind a guy who'd been dropped and lapped and was just loping along at about 10 mph below the speed of the pack. With nowhere to bail I had to lock up the brakes to avoid hitting him, causing me to lose all my momentum as my speed instantly dropped from 28 mph to 18 mph. Within 5 seconds I went from 3rd place to 40th place.

    I still managed to get back up to speed and pick off a few riders before the finish line for a 26th place finish.

    But I still wonder where I would have ended up if that guy had been pulled after he was lapped instead of being allowed to mosey along and essentially become a moving road hazard.

    If dropped or lapped riders can affect the outcome of a race, they should be pulled.

    Bob

  10. #10
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    I think the rule is also in place to avoid cheating.

    You could have your teamates intentionally fall off the back of the pack, then, you go off the front alone, which probably means the pack will let you go and hopefully watch you blow up. But instead, your team picks you up and paces you in what is now a breakaway with several of your lapped teamates and you.

    That wouldn't be fair, would it!
    Last edited by San Rensho; 02-01-07 at 02:41 PM.
    Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace

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  11. #11
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Obviously, I'm in a minority of 1 here. I think this tends to illustrate something about bike racer's attitudes, as oppossed to say runners.

    In running there's an inclusive atmosphere and everybody cheers on and encourages the guy who runs a 35 minute 5k because he finished.

    In cycling if you can't quite hang, you're too slow, you're dangerous, and we don't want you around. Come back when you can hang.

    the difference results from a safety issue, either real or perceived, and it may be justified. But if you're an aspiring Cat 5, thinking about driving 2 hours to your first race, have trained hard, but are not sure you're up to it, can't you see how the prevailing attitude in this thread would be a deterrant to buying a license, driving 2 hours, only to get pulled on the third lap?

  12. #12
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by San Rensho
    I think the rule is also in place to avoid cheating.

    You could have your teamates intentionally fall off the back of the pack, then, you go off the front alone, which probably means the pack will let you go and hopefully watch you blow up. But instead, your team picks you up and paces you in what is now a breakaway with several of your lapped teamates and you.

    The rules specifically address that, and its DQ for the rider getting assistance. Would be fairly easy to pick out.

  13. #13
    It's MY mountain DiabloScott's Avatar
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    There has to be judge discretion- otherwise what would happen when a small break laps the field? I've seen that happen twice in the same race!

    If the course allows it (wide streets, broad turns) and there's no hint of cheating, lapped riders should be allowed to finish. Doesn't make much sense in Cat 3 and up though.
    http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/

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    And, lapped riders make officiating more difficult because you have to keep track of them. They can get back in the pack and claim they were on the lead lap.
    Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace

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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    Obviously, I'm in a minority of 1 here. I think this tends to illustrate something about bike racer's attitudes, as oppossed to say runners.

    In running there's an inclusive atmosphere and everybody cheers on and encourages the guy who runs a 35 minute 5k because he finished.

    In cycling if you can't quite hang, your too slow, your dangerous, and we don't want you around. Come back when you can hang.
    Apples and oranges comparison. In running, youre going slow enough to easily get out of everyone's way, it just isnt that way in bike racing - especially in criteriums where you've got a limited road width, corners, uphills/downhills and speeds fluctuating over 30 mph at times. I wouldnt advocate pulling riders because they're slow and therefore "untouchables", it's simply a matter of safety. Also, lapped riders can really muck up results. You get a field sprint with lapped riders involved, it results in mis-placing racers and creates a difficulty for officials who have enough to keep track of as it is.

  16. #16
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto
    i'm guessing that the chic in red here was lapped.
    Aiyaah.... Oh no....

    You're right, botto, it just never gets old.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  17. #17
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    Obviously, I'm in a minority of 1 here. I think this tends to illustrate something about bike racer's attitudes, as oppossed to say runners.

    In running there's an inclusive atmosphere and everybody cheers on and encourages the guy who runs a 35 minute 5k because he finished.

    In cycling if you can't quite hang, you're too slow, you're dangerous, and we don't want you around. Come back when you can hang.

    the difference results from a safety issue, either real or perceived, and it may be justified. But if you're an aspiring Cat 5, thinking about driving 2 hours to your first race, have trained hard, but are not sure you're up to it, can't you see how the prevailing attitude in this thread would be a deterrant to buying a license, driving 2 hours, only to get pulled on the third lap?
    In running, the slow guys start at the back. The fast guys start at the front. You're also going at lower speeds. Have you ever heard of a 6min runner hitting a 10min runner and suffering extreme injuries?

    In running, if you're slower than the pack you get passed once and that's it. The key issue here is not sportsmanship or comraderie, but safety. Nobody pulls a slow rider in a road race or a century.
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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  18. #18
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloScott
    There has to be judge discretion- .
    There is. The applicable rule 3D3 on p68 of the rulebook http://usacycling.org/forms/RdTrkCx_rulebook.pdf

    I'd post the relevant passage but it's a PDF, and i'm too lazy to type it.

  19. #19
    more ape than man timmhaan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloScott

    If the course allows it (wide streets, broad turns) and there's no hint of cheating, lapped riders should be allowed to finish. Doesn't make much sense in Cat 3 and up though.
    yeah, i have no problem with it if the course is fine. i've finished races OTB before and i was always glad that i did, rather than just pull off. i thought it was cool that they let me do what was essentially an ITT. afterall, you're paying money to be there.

  20. #20
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
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    Merlin- You are a FL racer. I am a 16 year vet of FL racing. We have and always still do allow cat5's, women, 55+ers and juniors to stay in the race and then do our best to keep track of where everyone is on the course.

    Not sure why you even brought this up, as we totally understand the importance of keeping 5's in the race as long as possible.

    Yes, we will pull riders, once they are under 5 laps to go, but that is neccessary for safety and scoring.

    As far as cat4's and up and the other masters racers, they understand the rules and usually accept being whistled off the course if they are about to get lapped, unless they are in the main peloton of course.

  21. #21
    It's MY mountain DiabloScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    There is. The applicable rule 3D3 on p68 of the rulebook http://usacycling.org/forms/RdTrkCx_rulebook.pdf
    I know there is - I was responding to the poster who said "lapped riders should ALWAYS be pulled"... with the exception of breakaways lapping the field.
    http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/

  22. #22
    . botto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete
    Aiyaah.... Oh no....

    You're right, botto, it just never gets old.
    all i have to do is read your post and i start chuckilng

  23. #23
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
    Obviously, I'm in a minority of 1 here. I think this tends to illustrate something about bike racer's attitudes, as oppossed to say runners.

    In running there's an inclusive atmosphere and everybody cheers on and encourages the guy who runs a 35 minute 5k because he finished.

    In cycling if you can't quite hang, you're too slow, you're dangerous, and we don't want you around. Come back when you can hang.

    the difference results from a safety issue, either real or perceived, and it may be justified. But if you're an aspiring Cat 5, thinking about driving 2 hours to your first race, have trained hard, but are not sure you're up to it, can't you see how the prevailing attitude in this thread would be a deterrant to buying a license, driving 2 hours, only to get pulled on the third lap?
    A couple of problems, as a former runner, with your analogy:
    1) Only big (i.e. track) races are run on the track. Not your neighborhood 5k.
    2) They make lapped runners run in lane 2 in big races.
    3) If it's not being run on a track, you more than likely will not be doing laps, nor lapping or being lapped by other people.
    4) Pertaining to #1 and #2, if you're getting lapped in a race, you should pull off anyway. Be mature and realistic enough to realize that today is not your day.
    5) There is nothing wrong with getting dropped or getting lapped, but if it's on a course where you could be a danger to yourself or others, riders need to be pulled. I lost a large amount of money at a pretty big race when a lapped rider, who had just crashed, pulled out in front of me in the last corner of the race. I locked up the brakes and went straight into the barriers, barely clipping him instead of blowing him up.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  24. #24
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YMCA
    Merlin- You are a FL racer. I am a 16 year vet of FL racing. We have and always still do allow cat5's, women, 55+ers and juniors to stay in the race and then do our best to keep track of where everyone is on the course.

    Not sure why you even brought this up, as we totally understand the importance of keeping 5's in the race as long as possible.

    Yes, we will pull riders, once they are under 5 laps to go, but that is neccessary for safety and scoring.

    As far as cat4's and up and the other masters racers, they understand the rules and usually accept being whistled off the course if they are about to get lapped, unless they are in the main peloton of course.
    I started to say in my original post that what I've seen in Florida is much more accomodating than I've observed in past years in other areas of the country.

    And I'm not complaining personally. When I get dropped I usually try to scoot off the course anonymously well before I'm lapped. (unless it's a training race, and the custom is its ok to jump back in at the back.)

    My post was motivated by another thread where a guy asked if it was ok to essentially do his own ITT off the back if it got too sketchy.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV
    Apples and oranges comparison. In running, youre going slow enough to easily get out of everyone's way, it just isnt that way in bike racing - especially in criteriums where you've got a limited road width, corners, uphills/downhills and speeds fluctuating over 30 mph at times. I wouldnt advocate pulling riders because they're slow and therefore "untouchables", it's simply a matter of safety. Also, lapped riders can really muck up results. You get a field sprint with lapped riders involved, it results in mis-placing racers and creates a difficulty for officials who have enough to keep track of as it is.
    Forget about the officials, video is now cheap and this could be done. What about the riders. You work to get in position on a wheel and find out it is a lapped rider only when he has no legs or perhaps even tries a little late to do the right thing and sit up to avoid the sprint. Don't forget a little late can be two turns before the final straight.

    I don't race, but there is a crit course very close to me. There is no extra space. A rider can not just ride wide, cyclists go right up to the outside edge setting up for the corners. If things go just a little wrong the same can hold for coming out of the corner.

    If it were possible for riders to take on outside line that would always stay clear it might be worthwhile. But then again the riders most apt to be dropped are the new ones, the same ones who are most apt to not understand things like this.

    I don't understand the 'must finish' attitude. If you are racing then race. A crit is not something where doing the distance is a challange. Staying with the pack might be, but not simply riding.

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