Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 128

Thread: Zipp 404's

  1. #1
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Chester, NY
    My Bikes
    2013 Scott Foil, 2009 Scott Addict R2, 2008 Cervelo P3 TT bike, 2008 Motobecane Fly Ti Hard Tail MTB
    Posts
    55,759
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Zipp 404's

    Anybody have these? Do they feel faster than mortal rims?

    Man, they're very expensive. Anybody know current 2007 model MSRP (tubulars)? Best price anywhere?

  2. #2
    Senior Member zimbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,040
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Why tubulars? According to every tech weenie I know, they are slower than clinchers by a measurable margin.

    --Steve

  3. #3
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Chester, NY
    My Bikes
    2013 Scott Foil, 2009 Scott Addict R2, 2008 Cervelo P3 TT bike, 2008 Motobecane Fly Ti Hard Tail MTB
    Posts
    55,759
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo
    Why tubulars? According to every tech weenie I know, they are slower than clinchers by a measurable margin.

    --Steve
    Quick, somebody alert every pro team in the UCI, they're all misguided.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    2,904
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad
    Quick, somebody alert every pro team in the UCI, they're all misguided.
    Not every team, some are coming around slowly

  5. #5
    Senior Member eskimo85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    My Bikes
    giant comp2 tcr, giant xtc
    Posts
    645
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo
    Why tubulars? According to every tech weenie I know, they are slower than clinchers by a measurable margin.

    --Steve
    tell your tech weenies not to quit their day jobs.

  6. #6
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    ATX, Ex So Cal
    My Bikes
    Ridley Noah-Scott Addict-Orbea Ordu
    Posts
    11,058
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad
    Anybody have these? Do they feel faster than mortal rims?

    Man, they're very expensive. Anybody know current 2007 model MSRP (tubulars)? Best price anywhere?
    They are good wheels, you might also consider the Reynolds Status DV's. They beat out the Zipps in a head to head test done by Roadbike Review. I have a set in tubular form and they are just great.

  7. #7
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Chester, NY
    My Bikes
    2013 Scott Foil, 2009 Scott Addict R2, 2008 Cervelo P3 TT bike, 2008 Motobecane Fly Ti Hard Tail MTB
    Posts
    55,759
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    The bike weenie gauntlet has been thrown down:

    somebody PROVE to us clinchers are faster.

    And you're digressing. Stick to the topic you hopeless gearheads. It's Monday, I'm cranky, don't make me come over there. My legs are too sore.

  8. #8
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Chester, NY
    My Bikes
    2013 Scott Foil, 2009 Scott Addict R2, 2008 Cervelo P3 TT bike, 2008 Motobecane Fly Ti Hard Tail MTB
    Posts
    55,759
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
    They are good wheels, you might also consider the Reynolds Status DV's. They beat out the Zipps in a head to head test done by Roadbike Review. I have a set in tubular form and they are just great.
    EDR: weight on the Reynolds? Pricing? Durability? I'm about 170lbs, is that too heavy for the Status DV's? Thanks.

  9. #9
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    ATX, Ex So Cal
    My Bikes
    Ridley Noah-Scott Addict-Orbea Ordu
    Posts
    11,058
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The tubulars weigh in at around 1250g and I've seen them under 1300 bucks here

  10. #10
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Chester, NY
    My Bikes
    2013 Scott Foil, 2009 Scott Addict R2, 2008 Cervelo P3 TT bike, 2008 Motobecane Fly Ti Hard Tail MTB
    Posts
    55,759
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    I will carefully scope these out ED, thanks. Durability? Your experience? How long have you used them? Your weight?

  11. #11
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    ATX, Ex So Cal
    My Bikes
    Ridley Noah-Scott Addict-Orbea Ordu
    Posts
    11,058
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo
    Why tubulars? According to every tech weenie I know, they are slower than clinchers by a measurable margin.

    --Steve
    Assuming that all things are equal, rolling resistance (even with the advancement of clinchers this is not a forgone conclusion) and aerodynamics. The tubular wheel and tire will weigh less. So what would make a clincher so much faster?

  12. #12
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Chester, NY
    My Bikes
    2013 Scott Foil, 2009 Scott Addict R2, 2008 Cervelo P3 TT bike, 2008 Motobecane Fly Ti Hard Tail MTB
    Posts
    55,759
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Also: tubulars can be pumped up to higher psi, no? 150lbs +??

  13. #13
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    ATX, Ex So Cal
    My Bikes
    Ridley Noah-Scott Addict-Orbea Ordu
    Posts
    11,058
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad
    I will carefully scope these out ED, thanks. Durability? Your experience? How long have you used them? Your weight?
    Well I'm only 146# but I've seen quite few guys who are heavier ride them. My teammate has used a set of the clinchers to train on for two seasons now and he's 160#. I've got mine at the start of last season and only use them for races. The road here in central Texas are pretty rough chip seal and can get pretty beat up. The wheels have held up quite well. Vinokurtov also races on them and has had nothing but praise for them.

  14. #14
    Senior Member zimbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,040
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm not going to be able to "prove" anything even if I give you the tables from the studies that have been done. I'll simply say that on average, the clincher tires had a lower rolling resistance than the tubulars. Michelin Pro2 Race has measurably less rolling resistance and better puncture resistance than the best tubular tested.

    Clinchers = slightly lower rolling resistance
    Tubulars = slightly better handling, lighter weight

    --Steve

  15. #15
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    ATX, Ex So Cal
    My Bikes
    Ridley Noah-Scott Addict-Orbea Ordu
    Posts
    11,058
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad
    Also: tubulars can be pumped up to higher psi, no? 150lbs +??
    Yes the tubulars can be pumped much higher than a clincher. I routinely run mine between 140-150psi. I've tried just about every high end clincher on the market and nothing feels like my tubulars.

  16. #16
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    ATX, Ex So Cal
    My Bikes
    Ridley Noah-Scott Addict-Orbea Ordu
    Posts
    11,058
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo
    I'm not going to be able to "prove" anything even if I give you the tables from the studies that have been done. I'll simply say that Michelin Pro2 Race has measurably less rolling resistance and better puncture resistance than the best tubular tested.

    Clinchers = slightly lower rolling resistance
    Tubulars = slightly better handling, lighter weight

    --Steve
    That is far different than saying that the clincher version of the 404 is faster than the tubular version.

  17. #17
    Senior Member zimbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,040
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad
    Also: tubulars can be pumped up to higher psi, no? 150lbs +??
    On real roads, PSI of higher than about 120 actually increases the rolling resistance of tubulars. On a glass-smooth track it's a different story.

    --Steve

  18. #18
    Style-challenged platypus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    My Bikes
    Colnago C-50 Extreme Power, Bianchi Pista, Somec single-speed
    Posts
    918
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    while my tubulars claim to be able to take 160PSI (Conti Sprinter Gatorskins), I usually run them at about 120.

  19. #19
    Senior Member zimbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,040
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
    That is far different than saying that the clincher version of the 404 is faster than the tubular version.
    Ok, how about this... According to the numerous studies done by the tech weenies at Bike Tech Review (whose participants include the guy who runs the San Diego wind tunnel and the director sportif of Toyota United among others), the rolling resistance of the Zipp 404 tubular wheel using the very fastest tubular you can buy is higher than the Zipp 404 clincher wheel using a Michelin Pro2Race tire.

    If you want to argue that the reduced weight of the tubular is more of a factor than the reduced rolling resistance of the clincher on the courses you ride then you'd be better off with a lighter non-aero wheel.

    --Steve

  20. #20
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    ATX, Ex So Cal
    My Bikes
    Ridley Noah-Scott Addict-Orbea Ordu
    Posts
    11,058
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo
    Why tubulars? According to every tech weenie I know, they are slower than clinchers by a measurable margin.

    --Steve
    Okay how about this, your implication is that the clinchers are much faster. Rolling resistance is only part of the equation. In the real world a tubulars faster cornering and weight are factors. If by measurable you mean 1-2% then your statement is correct if not misleading.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
    My Bikes
    Focus Raven 29er, Santa Cruz Blur LTc
    Posts
    4,567
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The differences, when on the road, in rolling resistance between the best clinchers and best tubulars are very, very small. And, given the fact that you don't get pinch flats with tubulars, you might very well end up ahead of the game, as opposed to clinchers.

    Tubulars= very small rise in CRR (you can't feel this, and you probably wouldn't see any discernable difference in speed), better cornering due to the shape of the tire, no pinch flats, far fewer blowouts, and you don't roll them nearly as easily.

    Clinchers= slightly lower CRR than tubies. Shape of tire makes them less adept at cornering. Vulnerable to pinch flats. Corner on a clincher going flat or flat, and you're f***ed.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  22. #22
    Now Racer Ex Vinokurtov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,709
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo
    On real roads, PSI of higher than about 120 actually increases the rolling resistance of tubulars. On a glass-smooth track it's a different story.

    --Steve
    Contradicted by one recent study I read. The study noted above was funded by Conti who have a (guess the number here) PSI limit on their tubulars. Voodoo physics. Whatever.

    The Stratus wheels are ubber durable and tough from my experience. I started racing them around 170#, dropped a water bottle into the front and finished a 60 mile RR on 14 of 16 spokes without rubbing the brake block.
    "I may not be as strong as I think I am, but I know many tricks, and I have resolution" - Santiago

  23. #23
    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    My Bikes
    08 Felt F4, 05 Fuji Team SL, 08 Planet X Stealth, 10 Kona Jake the Snake, 03 Giant OCR flat bar.
    Posts
    3,963
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad
    The bike weenie gauntlet has been thrown down:

    somebody PROVE to us clinchers are faster.

    And you're digressing. Stick to the topic you hopeless gearheads. It's Monday, I'm cranky, don't make me come over there. My legs are too sore.
    Bottom of the page on the charts.

    http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-1503651.html
    FS: Fuji SL1 frameset, 55.5cm toptube, excellent condition.

  24. #24
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Jacksonville
    My Bikes
    Wilier trestina Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecanne Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2
    Posts
    26,711
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Setting aside the clincher/tubular debate, I train and race on Zipp 404's



    In my experience they've been very durable wheels. (did a race sunday with a fairly bumpy cobbled section with them with no problem).

    Once they're up to speed, they definitely feel fast. Objectively it might .25 mph or so in the low 20's.

    When I first got them, they felt a bit slow accelerating, compared to a lighter set of 303's. However, I pretty much got used to that after a while, and I doubt the actual difference would be measurable.

  25. #25
    Slow'n'Aero DrWJODonnell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Driving the pace in the crosswind
    Posts
    2,599
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I race on 404's. They are great wheels, though I have to say that I cracked my original set (when I was at 175lbs) on a nasty pothole. I rebuilt with the pave cross rims (about 100 grams heavier I think) and have rode VERY rough stuff with no problems. If I do Battenkill-Roubaix this year, it will be on my 404's.

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •