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Old 02-26-07, 12:04 PM   #1
patentcad
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Zipp 404's

Anybody have these? Do they feel faster than mortal rims?

Man, they're very expensive. Anybody know current 2007 model MSRP (tubulars)? Best price anywhere?
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Old 02-26-07, 12:13 PM   #2
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Why tubulars? According to every tech weenie I know, they are slower than clinchers by a measurable margin.

--Steve
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Old 02-26-07, 12:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbo
Why tubulars? According to every tech weenie I know, they are slower than clinchers by a measurable margin.

--Steve
Quick, somebody alert every pro team in the UCI, they're all misguided.
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Old 02-26-07, 12:16 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by patentcad
Quick, somebody alert every pro team in the UCI, they're all misguided.
Not every team, some are coming around slowly
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Old 02-26-07, 12:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbo
Why tubulars? According to every tech weenie I know, they are slower than clinchers by a measurable margin.

--Steve
tell your tech weenies not to quit their day jobs.
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Old 02-26-07, 12:17 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patentcad
Anybody have these? Do they feel faster than mortal rims?

Man, they're very expensive. Anybody know current 2007 model MSRP (tubulars)? Best price anywhere?
They are good wheels, you might also consider the Reynolds Status DV's. They beat out the Zipps in a head to head test done by Roadbike Review. I have a set in tubular form and they are just great.
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Old 02-26-07, 12:18 PM   #7
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The bike weenie gauntlet has been thrown down:

somebody PROVE to us clinchers are faster.

And you're digressing. Stick to the topic you hopeless gearheads. It's Monday, I'm cranky, don't make me come over there. My legs are too sore.
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Old 02-26-07, 12:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
They are good wheels, you might also consider the Reynolds Status DV's. They beat out the Zipps in a head to head test done by Roadbike Review. I have a set in tubular form and they are just great.
EDR: weight on the Reynolds? Pricing? Durability? I'm about 170lbs, is that too heavy for the Status DV's? Thanks.
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Old 02-26-07, 12:24 PM   #9
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The tubulars weigh in at around 1250g and I've seen them under 1300 bucks here
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Old 02-26-07, 12:26 PM   #10
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I will carefully scope these out ED, thanks. Durability? Your experience? How long have you used them? Your weight?
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Old 02-26-07, 12:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbo
Why tubulars? According to every tech weenie I know, they are slower than clinchers by a measurable margin.

--Steve
Assuming that all things are equal, rolling resistance (even with the advancement of clinchers this is not a forgone conclusion) and aerodynamics. The tubular wheel and tire will weigh less. So what would make a clincher so much faster?
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Old 02-26-07, 12:29 PM   #12
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Also: tubulars can be pumped up to higher psi, no? 150lbs +??
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Old 02-26-07, 12:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patentcad
I will carefully scope these out ED, thanks. Durability? Your experience? How long have you used them? Your weight?
Well I'm only 146# but I've seen quite few guys who are heavier ride them. My teammate has used a set of the clinchers to train on for two seasons now and he's 160#. I've got mine at the start of last season and only use them for races. The road here in central Texas are pretty rough chip seal and can get pretty beat up. The wheels have held up quite well. Vinokurtov also races on them and has had nothing but praise for them.
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Old 02-26-07, 12:31 PM   #14
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I'm not going to be able to "prove" anything even if I give you the tables from the studies that have been done. I'll simply say that on average, the clincher tires had a lower rolling resistance than the tubulars. Michelin Pro2 Race has measurably less rolling resistance and better puncture resistance than the best tubular tested.

Clinchers = slightly lower rolling resistance
Tubulars = slightly better handling, lighter weight

--Steve
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Old 02-26-07, 12:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patentcad
Also: tubulars can be pumped up to higher psi, no? 150lbs +??
Yes the tubulars can be pumped much higher than a clincher. I routinely run mine between 140-150psi. I've tried just about every high end clincher on the market and nothing feels like my tubulars.
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Old 02-26-07, 12:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbo
I'm not going to be able to "prove" anything even if I give you the tables from the studies that have been done. I'll simply say that Michelin Pro2 Race has measurably less rolling resistance and better puncture resistance than the best tubular tested.

Clinchers = slightly lower rolling resistance
Tubulars = slightly better handling, lighter weight

--Steve
That is far different than saying that the clincher version of the 404 is faster than the tubular version.
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Old 02-26-07, 12:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patentcad
Also: tubulars can be pumped up to higher psi, no? 150lbs +??
On real roads, PSI of higher than about 120 actually increases the rolling resistance of tubulars. On a glass-smooth track it's a different story.

--Steve
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Old 02-26-07, 12:37 PM   #18
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while my tubulars claim to be able to take 160PSI (Conti Sprinter Gatorskins), I usually run them at about 120.
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Old 02-26-07, 12:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
That is far different than saying that the clincher version of the 404 is faster than the tubular version.
Ok, how about this... According to the numerous studies done by the tech weenies at Bike Tech Review (whose participants include the guy who runs the San Diego wind tunnel and the director sportif of Toyota United among others), the rolling resistance of the Zipp 404 tubular wheel using the very fastest tubular you can buy is higher than the Zipp 404 clincher wheel using a Michelin Pro2Race tire.

If you want to argue that the reduced weight of the tubular is more of a factor than the reduced rolling resistance of the clincher on the courses you ride then you'd be better off with a lighter non-aero wheel.

--Steve
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Old 02-26-07, 12:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbo
Why tubulars? According to every tech weenie I know, they are slower than clinchers by a measurable margin.

--Steve
Okay how about this, your implication is that the clinchers are much faster. Rolling resistance is only part of the equation. In the real world a tubulars faster cornering and weight are factors. If by measurable you mean 1-2% then your statement is correct if not misleading.
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Old 02-26-07, 12:45 PM   #21
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The differences, when on the road, in rolling resistance between the best clinchers and best tubulars are very, very small. And, given the fact that you don't get pinch flats with tubulars, you might very well end up ahead of the game, as opposed to clinchers.

Tubulars= very small rise in CRR (you can't feel this, and you probably wouldn't see any discernable difference in speed), better cornering due to the shape of the tire, no pinch flats, far fewer blowouts, and you don't roll them nearly as easily.

Clinchers= slightly lower CRR than tubies. Shape of tire makes them less adept at cornering. Vulnerable to pinch flats. Corner on a clincher going flat or flat, and you're f***ed.
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Old 02-26-07, 12:49 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbo
On real roads, PSI of higher than about 120 actually increases the rolling resistance of tubulars. On a glass-smooth track it's a different story.

--Steve
Contradicted by one recent study I read. The study noted above was funded by Conti who have a (guess the number here) PSI limit on their tubulars. Voodoo physics. Whatever.

The Stratus wheels are ubber durable and tough from my experience. I started racing them around 170#, dropped a water bottle into the front and finished a 60 mile RR on 14 of 16 spokes without rubbing the brake block.
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Old 02-26-07, 12:52 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patentcad
The bike weenie gauntlet has been thrown down:

somebody PROVE to us clinchers are faster.

And you're digressing. Stick to the topic you hopeless gearheads. It's Monday, I'm cranky, don't make me come over there. My legs are too sore.
Bottom of the page on the charts.

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-1503651.html
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Old 02-26-07, 12:55 PM   #24
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Setting aside the clincher/tubular debate, I train and race on Zipp 404's



In my experience they've been very durable wheels. (did a race sunday with a fairly bumpy cobbled section with them with no problem).

Once they're up to speed, they definitely feel fast. Objectively it might .25 mph or so in the low 20's.

When I first got them, they felt a bit slow accelerating, compared to a lighter set of 303's. However, I pretty much got used to that after a while, and I doubt the actual difference would be measurable.
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Old 02-26-07, 01:09 PM   #25
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I race on 404's. They are great wheels, though I have to say that I cracked my original set (when I was at 175lbs) on a nasty pothole. I rebuilt with the pave cross rims (about 100 grams heavier I think) and have rode VERY rough stuff with no problems. If I do Battenkill-Roubaix this year, it will be on my 404's.
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