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  1. #1
    部門ニ/自転車オタク NomadVW's Avatar
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    Operation Puerto case dropped - who got the screws the most?

    Puerto Dropped

    So, aside from the cycling fans and public - who got screwed the most from an investigation as botched as this one? Basso, Ullrich? All of Astana? CSC?

    The list of folks that really got the shaft is almost mind-numbing.
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  2. #2
    Up on the Down Side CyLowe97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NomadVW
    So, aside from the cycling fans and public - who got screwed the most from an investigation as botched as this one? Basso, Ullrich? All of Astana? CSC?
    Yes. To all of them. They all got screwed the most, though one has to feel for Ullrich, since that was really his last shot at Le Tour. At least Basso's got a fresh start at Disco, CSC is still a power, and Astana pulled through in the Vuelta and Vino will be back this year as a Tour contender.

  3. #3
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    This one's simple:

    The fans who were looking forward to Le Tour 2006.

    Personally I was hoping Der Kaiser would eat small children and pummel the peloton into submission. A guy I work with was hoping Basso would have zipped past everyone to take yellow in the hills.

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    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    It is stunning to see how these things play out. Imagine this happening on your job.

    Lawsuit.

    You look at this and have to wonder why the riders don't band together and form a real union to represent them with a collective bargaining agreement that protects them in cases like this.

    Further, say unlike the NFL which handles things in house, you have third parties involved (WADA for example).

    This ended Ullrich's career. That's very sad.
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    I was so looking forward the the tour in '06 because it looked like Ullrich was in tip top form and I couldn't wait to see him, Floyd, and Basso go at it. I put my money on Ullrich, it just looked like it he was going to be the man to beat. I wish he could have retired after winning the tour, rather than the way he ended his career.

  6. #6
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Saying that we, the fans, had the most to lose from the whole Puerto thing is pretty damn selfish. I mean, pro cyclists don't get many shots at greatness. They're usually at their peak for a few years then fade into oblivion. They spend their entire lives getting crapped on and paying their dues for that little time in the sun. I mean, how do we know how many more years Basso had the double in his legs? He may never again.

    At the end of the day, the athletes are still the ones who lost out. Two teams dissolved completely, other riders got ostracized and/or moved to other, lesser-known teams, and still others have been crucified in the court of public opinion to the point that no self-respecting sponsor even wants to touch them.

    Sure it's a shame, and I think Le Tour would've been amazing to watch with Jan and Ivan there, but my career wasn't tarnished by it and I still brought home a paycheck that month.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  7. #7
    Race to train jrennie's Avatar
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    +1 Dr.Pete So we missed seeing the Kaiser and Basso duke it out, big deal. The riders who were wrongly accused and missed the chance to culminate their training or earn their wadge got screwed not us. We all got to see a wild action packed tour with a new leader around every corner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NomadVW
    Hardly. All this means is the criminal case in Spain has ended. The judge has previously said that at the conclusion of the case, the evidence will be turned over to UCI to pursue doping charges against the riders. I'd say this is just the start, not the end.

  9. #9
    . Namenda's Avatar
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    ^^^I have to agree. This whole affair will get messier before its over.

  10. #10
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle
    Hardly. All this means is the criminal case in Spain has ended. The judge has previously said that at the conclusion of the case, the evidence will be turned over to UCI to pursue doping charges against the riders. I'd say this is just the start, not the end.
    +1

    I suggest you re-read the article, if you think it's "over:"

    "Several Spanish newspapers published extracts of a leaked report from judge Antonio Serrano, saying doping practices had occurred.... Doping itself was not punishable under Spanish law when the charges were brought in May last year and the judge said that the case was not subject to new legislation introduced since."

    We'll know more in a few days, if/when a formal announcement is made.

  11. #11
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    Yep the UCI will still continue to seek action against the accused riders..and then their is WADA and a certain Mr Pound who will no doubt be licking his fangs in anticipation of receiving the report.

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    Senior Member Trevor98's Avatar
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    I read the article and it has nothing to say about the future of the doping cases against cyclists. Fuentes et al are apparently safe from Spanish punishment but the fallout from this investigation is far from over. The really relevant part of the article is that the OP documents are now available to sports and anti-doping authorities.

    It will be really interesting to see what other sports are implicated.
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  13. #13
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor98
    I read the article and it has nothing to say about the future of the doping cases against cyclists. Fuentes et al are apparently safe from Spanish punishment but the fallout from this investigation is far from over. The really relevant part of the article is that the OP documents are now available to sports and anti-doping authorities.

    It will be really interesting to see what other sports are implicated.
    No matter what other sports are implicated my guess is that cyclist will be the ones who are most vehemently perused.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Super Guanche's Avatar
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    Because doping wasn't a crime in Spain at the time, they had to prosecute for endangering public health, which was always going to be a tough one. If anything, this case was what was holding up resolution of the Puerto affair. Presuming all of the evidence is now turned over to cycling authorities, we could see a lot of suspensions being handed down over the next few months.

  15. #15
    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Der Kaiser already won a TdF and will undoubtably have a very respectable & profitable career as a coach and speaker. Basso will undoubtably have opportunities to win it in the future. We all got robbed of a chance to watch them duke it out - that will now never happen.

    yeah, I guess I'm just selfish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Guanche
    Because doping wasn't a crime in Spain at the time, they had to prosecute for endangering public health, which was always going to be a tough one. If anything, this case was what was holding up resolution of the Puerto affair. Presuming all of the evidence is now turned over to cycling authorities, we could see a lot of suspensions being handed down over the next few months.
    agreed.......none of these riders were 'cleared' per se; rather they couldn't be convicted using current legislation. i don't understand this 'aww that poor cyclist' mentality? these guys screwed themselves....regardless of how this case was handled with all its flaws etc. ultimately the resposibilty rests with the riders for the predicament they're in.
    there will come a time when there will not come a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcates
    i don't understand this 'aww that poor cyclist' mentality? these guys screwed themselves....
    Like Vinokourov? Would you be willing to subject yourself to suspension for a year without pay if five of your coworkers were accused (note, not convicted) of breaking some law or company policy?

  18. #18
    Senior Member erader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadwarrior
    It is stunning to see how these things play out. Imagine this happening on your job.

    Lawsuit.

    You look at this and have to wonder why the riders don't band together and form a real union to represent them with a collective bargaining agreement that protects them in cases like this.

    Further, say unlike the NFL which handles things in house, you have third parties involved (WADA for example).

    This ended Ullrich's career. That's very sad.
    ullrich was no angel. some would argue his career ended years ago.

    a lot of people got screwed in operation puerto but plenty of cheaters skated big time .

    ed rader

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    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle
    Like Vinokourov? Would you be willing to subject yourself to suspension for a year without pay if five of your coworkers were accused (note, not convicted) of breaking some law or company policy?
    well i do feel sorry for vino.....but he was basically screwed over by these guys as well.......and he did get to race in the vuelta; sure not the same of the TdF i know.
    there will come a time when there will not come a time.

  20. #20
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    I can't say that I feel sorry for any of them as they all signed a contract and in that contract the teams are obliged to suspend any rider under investigation for doping. The riders knew/know this and they signed on the dotted line. It sucks no doubt but they knew what they were getting into when they signed. Vino's case is unusual as he himself was not implicated but just about his entire team was. This left him without enough teammates to start the TdF.

  21. #21
    Senior Member erader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcates
    well i do feel sorry for vino.....but he was basically screwed over by these guys as well.......and he did get to race in the vuelta; sure not the same of the TdF i know.
    but doesn't this guy somehow manage to get screwed every year ?

    ed rader

  22. #22
    bac
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    Senior Member bac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erader
    but doesn't this guy somehow manage to get screwed every year ?

    ed rader
    This year he's going to screw back! Go Vino!


  23. #23
    Senior Member Trevor98's Avatar
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    The really unfortunate side of the mistreatment of Vino was that his teammates were cleared shortly after being implicated. They should have never been implicated. Sloppy investigation and the weird Spanish system kept Vino out of the TdF rather than doping.

    Furthermore, the requirement to suspend any rider under investigation is ludicrous. Investigations can simply be fishing expeditions or perjury traps. This investigation revealed that an in depth investigation can occur in Spain without a crime. Investigations and accusations are cheap- convictions are much more difficult. They can also be based on really flawed "proof"- Armstrong should have been suspended for his 7th TdF ride under this rule as the French anti-doping agency was investigating him for the leaked LNND B sample tests. That investigation was halted early last year because they had no case but he would have been suspended none the less. Simply put, this rule is too open to abuse.

    I hope we never find out either way if the specific release of the OP documents to cycling was motivated by nationalistic factors. Cycling can only be hurt by such a revelation.
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    -trevor
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  24. #24
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor98
    The really unfortunate side of the mistreatment of Vino was that his teammates were cleared shortly after being implicated. They should have never been implicated. Sloppy investigation and the weird Spanish system kept Vino out of the TdF rather than doping.

    Furthermore, the requirement to suspend any rider under investigation is ludicrous. Investigations can simply be fishing expeditions or perjury traps. This investigation revealed that an in depth investigation can occur in Spain without a crime. Investigations and accusations are cheap- convictions are much more difficult. They can also be based on really flawed "proof"- Armstrong should have been suspended for his 7th TdF ride under this rule as the French anti-doping agency was investigating him for the leaked LNND B sample tests. That investigation was halted early last year because they had no case but he would have been suspended none the less. Simply put, this rule is too open to abuse.

    I hope we never find out either way if the specific release of the OP documents to cycling was motivated by nationalistic factors. Cycling can only be hurt by such a revelation.
    Agreed but the riders and teams have only themselves to blame for agreeing to it. You would never see a Footballer (soccer) or international tennis player agreeing to such a lame rule. The cyclist need to form a strong union and fight for their rights otherwise the UCI and WADA are going to continue to own them.

    BTW if you don't think this kind of needless persecution doesn't take place here just ask the Duke La Crosse players how they feel about losing everything based on a bogus accusation.
    Last edited by El Diablo Rojo; 03-10-07 at 05:47 PM.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Trevor98's Avatar
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    Money talks. I cannot expect these guys to turn down a pro contract to work in a _____ based on principles. If FIFA passed a similarly lame rule and demanded that the players agree or go home very few would choose to go home.

    I know this happens everywhere and in every walk of life. Libby was just convicted of perjury during an investigation that led nowhere. Clinton was similarly prosecuted. The Duke hoax was just sad (they did not, lose everything- they still go to Duke and are most likely wealthy). However, just because it happens everywhere doesn't mean I have to like it.
    -
    -trevor
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