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Old 03-13-07, 09:38 PM   #1
patentcad
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Basic Training question

I did intervals today - started with 1 minute sessions, moved up to 2 mins., then 4+ minute jams. Recovered between each jam ( no HR monitor, I generally know when I'm recovered). That was a 10 mile warm up followed by 28 miles of intervals (hilly, windy terrain, about 1:30 of more or less continuous intervals/recovery), followed by 12 mile spin back home, 50 mile ride. This week:

Monday - very easy recovery spin, small ring - 30 mi

Tuesday (today) - intervals, 50 miles

Wed (tomorrow) - lower gears, 35 miles, some hills, semi-recovery

Thurs - hill repeats, 6x up 2 similar 1.5 mile climbs (either side of a ridge), about a 35 mile ride.

Fri. - small ring recovery spin, 45mi.

Sat. - 20 mile circuit race,

Sun- 35-40mi hard group ride (similar to a race, longer)

The question is this: I presume I can go hard two days during my week and then harder on the weekend again if I allow recovery days (Monday, Wed, Fri). I'm 49. My legs are fried today after that interval session. Does the schedule above work? Not enough rest? I'm not sure how you train to race without putting the kind of miles describe above, but not sure if that recovery time/agenda is sufficient.

And yes Dr. Pete, I promise to use the HR monitor next week. Sorry coach.
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Old 03-13-07, 09:50 PM   #2
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Looks good assuming your recovery is truly recovery. But then again with the mileage you are used to, I think you would be fine. Listen to your body. If it feels like you are getting worn down or you start getting sick, it's too much.
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Old 03-13-07, 10:21 PM   #3
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Just IMO,your monday 30mi seems like an awful long recovery ride. I think you might be better served by cutting that down to 1-1 1/2 hrs, something around 15mi max. You just want to spin your legs out. Everyone can use a day off (or almost off) once a week.

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Old 03-13-07, 10:36 PM   #4
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I think your recovery rides are too long. If you cream yourself the way you should with those intervals...I think it's likely you'll recover faster with 1 short recovery ride and one day off the bike. My apologies to your aching back.

Edit: Penguin has spoken for me already, I see.
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Old 03-13-07, 10:37 PM   #5
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I'd take a full day off the bike on Monday, or at least go no longer than 45 minutes - 1 hour. It really isn't that bad to take a day off the bike, and it is useful if recovery rides end up being a little harder than they should be.
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Old 03-13-07, 10:59 PM   #6
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Well, you're missing one of the most important workouts: sprints. I'd substitute your Wed ride with sprints, followed by easy spin miles.

+1 to shortening or eliminating Monday
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Old 03-13-07, 10:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patentcad

Fri. - small ring recovery spin, 45mi.

Sat. - 20 mile circuit race,
That's pretty crazy. Generally the day before a race I'll ride maybe 10 miles, mostly noodling with my hr around 50-60%, with 3 all out sprints thrown in for good measure. You want to keep your legs fresh and ready to rumble...you might consider moving some of your friday mileage to wednesday and change that ride into a longer base effort one, or maybe discard the extra mileage altogether.

You're basically doing intervals Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, and Sunday... that's plenty
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Old 03-14-07, 04:38 AM   #8
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Thanks for the input boys. It's a work in progress. Or lack of same, whichever the case may be : ).
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Old 03-14-07, 04:51 AM   #9
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all good stuff here.

fwiw - last year i was racing once a week, on saturdays. i would have long, and reasonably hard ride on sundays, and a group ride on tuesdays with 4-5 guys, which was basically like a group interval session.

apart from those three days, i went on bike walks of various durations, but almost always the same intensity - next to none.

ymmv.
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Old 03-14-07, 05:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patentcad
Thanks for the input boys. It's a work in progress. Or lack of same, whichever the case may be : ).
Rest is your friend.
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Old 03-14-07, 06:32 AM   #11
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Your interval days are too long. 50 miles with intervals isn't a great way to train your body to react to the interval itself. Intervals should be 2 hours, max. 30 minutes warmup, an hour of intervals and 30 minute spin-out. This way, you HR is up when it needs to be and down at the end, like it should be.

My old coach, who raced in Eastern Europe, when the Iron Curtain was still up, introduced me to this concept.

Whatever workout you are going to do, go do it and go home. Don't try to include a workout in a regular ride.

IMO, you are on the bike too much. It's not how much you ride, it's how much you rest...
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Old 03-14-07, 06:35 AM   #12
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Wednesday, March 14th, 2007, 8:40 AM:

damocles1 and I agreed.
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Old 03-14-07, 06:49 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damocles1
Your interval days are too long. 50 miles with intervals isn't a great way to train your body to react to the interval itself. Intervals should be 2 hours, max. 30 minutes warmup, an hour of intervals and 30 minute spin-out. This way, you HR is up when it needs to be and down at the end, like it should be.

My old coach, who raced in Eastern Europe, when the Iron Curtain was still up, introduced me to this concept.

Whatever workout you are going to do, go do it and go home. Don't try to include a workout in a regular ride.

IMO, you are on the bike too much. It's not how much you ride, it's how much you rest...
+1. I think you have too much emphasis on miles. Miles are only a biproduct of training. You should focus on time and intensity not miles. If you're "fried" the extra mileage is just junk and is adding to fatigue without benefitting your fitness.

FWIW - the past month for me (cat 3) has been a heavy build period, I've not been on the bike more than 9.5 hrs. in any one week during that time. That equates to roughly (lots of it has been on the indoor trainer) 160 - 170 miles/week, whereas your plan below has ~250 miles/week. For 20 mi. circuit races, you dont need 250 mi/week unless your body is able to handle that load and adapt positively, which based on your post doesnt seem to be the case.
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Old 03-14-07, 06:51 AM   #14
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Interesting to read folks recommending less time on the bike. I guess it depends on what you and your body are used to.

Assuming slow paces for recovery, I'm guessing time on the bike looks like this:
Mon 2 hrs
Tue 2.5 hrs
Wed 1.75-2hrs
Thur 1.75-2hrs
Fri 2.5-3 hrs
Sat ~1 hr (including warmup/cooldowns)
Sun 1.75-2 hrs

Assuming longest times for everything, we're talking 14 hrs in a week of training. That's not so out of this world.

If the easy spins are actually easy spins, and you're feeling recovered, right on. I have a tendency to not "easy spin" so I get a full day off once a week and my day after threshold is a longer endurance ride at low level 1. (50-60 miles) I still have to be careful to not push it on these days if I'm feeling fresh because I'll pay for it in later workouts in the week. (I'll pay for today probably )
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Old 03-14-07, 06:55 AM   #15
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ACK! All ya need is a "T"-patch and Jim Beam and get on with it.

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Old 03-14-07, 07:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NomadVW
Interesting to read folks recommending less time on the bike. I guess it depends on what you and your body are used to.

Assuming slow paces for recovery, I'm guessing time on the bike looks like this:
Mon 2 hrs
Tue 2.5 hrs
Wed 1.75-2hrs
Thur 1.75-2hrs
Fri 2.5-3 hrs
Sat ~1 hr (including warmup/cooldowns)
Sun 1.75-2 hrs

Assuming longest times for everything, we're talking 14 hrs in a week of training. That's not so out of this world.

If the easy spins are actually easy spins, and you're feeling recovered, right on. I have a tendency to not "easy spin" so I get a full day off once a week and my day after threshold is a longer endurance ride at low level 1. (50-60 miles) I still have to be careful to not push it on these days if I'm feeling fresh because I'll pay for it in later workouts in the week. (I'll pay for today probably )
Yeah. Experience often leads to "interesting" advice.
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Old 03-14-07, 07:12 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NomadVW
Interesting to read folks recommending less time on the bike. I guess it depends on what you and your body are used to.

Assuming slow paces for recovery, I'm guessing time on the bike looks like this:
Mon 2 hrs
Tue 2.5 hrs
Wed 1.75-2hrs
Thur 1.75-2hrs
Fri 2.5-3 hrs
Sat ~1 hr (including warmup/cooldowns)
Sun 1.75-2 hrs

Assuming longest times for everything, we're talking 14 hrs in a week of training. That's not so out of this world.

If the easy spins are actually easy spins, and you're feeling recovered, right on. I have a tendency to not "easy spin" so I get a full day off once a week and my day after threshold is a longer endurance ride at low level 1. (50-60 miles) I still have to be careful to not push it on these days if I'm feeling fresh because I'll pay for it in later workouts in the week. (I'll pay for today probably )
You can do a lot of with quality training hours. Given the length of races most of us compete in, weekly hours don't need to be that extreme.

I wouldn't say 14 hours is out of this world. For me, however, it is in the upper range of what I can do given intervals and other focused training during the week. When I was doing winter base, I could handle about 15 hours, but that was all rather low intensity work.
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Old 03-14-07, 07:20 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NomadVW
Assuming longest times for everything, we're talking 14 hrs in a week of training. That's not so out of this world.
I know Cat 1s who train 15 hours a week. I can't see a need to train more than them unless you're doing grand tours.
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Old 03-14-07, 07:26 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botto
Yeah. Experience often leads to "interesting" advice.
No argument there. I would also say that some of the most interesting advice I've been given has not always been the best advice.

It's also interesting that most folks get the following response when they ask how to get faster:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Normal Response
Ride more, ride harder
People will say that the one pros get better than the next because they spend BETTER and MORE time on the bike. (aside from assumption that genetics underly that)

Here we have someone posting they ride in the "more" category, and most responses say "ride less." I'm not saying he couldn't benefit from the full day off on Monday - I know I do. The same amount of time might be better distributed elsewhere in the schedule for more upper level work with the full day off. (maybe add distance to the Sunday ride to stretch into the 4 hr range)

Anyway... just observations.
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Old 03-14-07, 07:53 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell
Looks good assuming your recovery is truly recovery. But then again with the mileage you are used to, I think you would be fine. Listen to your body. If it feels like you are getting worn down or you start getting sick, it's too much.

100% agree....

Dont listen to those posting saying "too much interval work" or "not enough rest". If you body can handle it than go for it. It all comes down to you and how you feel.

Just keep in mind its not all about the miles you put in but what you put in the miles you do. For some that means they need to ride less, some need to ride more. In the end (again) you have to be honest with yourself. Dont cheat your body from having a good workout because a book says to rest and dont cheat your body by working out too much thus not able to put in the proper effort.

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Old 03-14-07, 07:58 AM   #21
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A 50 mi day with intervals would fry me, and would lead to slower intervals. Tendency is for the intervals to be slower than they could be. As I've aged this is more and more the case, rarely have a flat interval day with over an hour to hour and a half on the bike. Do you cycle? Have you thought about occasionally riding a pattern of 2 hard days one (or two) easy?

Agree you need to monitor your heart rate, and keep it down, on the easy days. I don't think the time on bike is excessive if your easy (zone 2) rides are kept under control. And if you cycle down to an 8 to 10 hr week every 4th or so.

Be carefull when compairing your training to "Pros", they are competing in a different sport with different physical demands, and are able to (and do) slack pretty much all of their off bike time.
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Old 03-14-07, 08:30 AM   #22
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I don't disagree with the 'ride less miles' advice - after 13,000+ miles last year, I am riding less this year. But many racers ride 5000-8000 miles annually - and I'm reasonably sure I need to ride more like 10-12K miles to be a happy camper for a number of reasons. But I am focusing much harder on going VERY easy on the easy days and upping the intensity on the hard days. That alone should start to make me stronger. We'll see. Like I said, work in progress. Can I make this work and have fun racing? We'll see.

Racing would be more important to me if I didn't suck at it. Could I get better? Yes. Do I want to compromise some of what I love about cycling to get there? I'm not sure it's worth it to me. I'm trying to strike a happy medium. Ultimately I enjoy riding with the racing guys on weekends more than the racing itself, but find it's pretty hard to do those rides if you don't have the speed/fitness you get from actual races.
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Old 03-14-07, 09:12 AM   #23
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I think there is a real tendency among most folks to want to ride more than we need. One, we like to ride, Two, the thought that more is better, protestant work ethic, and Three, it's easier to ride a lot of moderately hard miles, than it is to ride less but with a very structured, often painful program.

For your basic 45 minute crit, 35 mile RR, type program, if your doing more than about 150-175 a week, the extra miles are costing you energy that could be focused on intensity.
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Old 03-14-07, 09:22 AM   #24
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Don't think of higher intensity as "riding less". Even if you arn't training just to race learn to take some enjoyment and satisfaction out of going fast as well as far.
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Old 03-14-07, 09:42 AM   #25
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I'm not racing [yet], but I am monitoring my performance with an iBike and importing the data into CyclingPeaks.

My typical week is 1.9 hours a day x 5 days and 4 hours minimum x 2 days for a GT of 17.5 hours. Most of my morning rides are Zone 2. Afternoon rides are Zones 2-4 & 6 with this "sprint" thrown in daily:

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=772015

That sprint is sometimes enough to make my eyes roll into the back of my head, but even though it's not a true VO2Max effort of 5-8 minutes, it bumps up hard against VO2Max. I've been doing these for about a year, because they keep motorists on my bike commute route home happy (for the most part) because the speed limit is 45 MPH and there is no shoulder, so I've obligated myself to get out of the way and on to a slower street asap. But, the true reason is that I've seen that they've made me stronger and more tolerant to the metabolite build-up (lactic acid and Hydrogen ion) experienced in high force efforts over 30 seconds long like this.

Right or wrong, this is what I do for "base training".
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