echappist

could you elaborate on how one "rolls" one's shoulders? are you sinking your head down further (aka turtling) or is this something else?

Ygduf

so I think what he means is this: stand up, back straight, at attention. Now try to touch both your shoulders to your chin at the same time.

Doge

Put your elbows together in front of you and notice where your shoulders go. Now try to get that position on the bike. This both keeps your elbows out of the wind and decreases area (shoulders) pushing wind. Some of the newer bars help facilitate this. This will raise your torso a bit unless you increase elbow bend (you may not want to, or shouldn't), so adjust bar height accordingly.

The downside is it affects breathing and comfort. "They" (think it was SKY) found that putting the TT arm rests closer and bringing elbows closer, while more uncomfortable at first made TT times better. My son does not do this well. His coach does. Actually I do.

tetonrider

this is not universal. depends quite a bit on physiology. riders should do their own testing (field, tunnel, track) before assuming they are more aero in one position or another.

shovelhd

This is probably the biggest benefit of the Cane Creek speed bars, which is not easily duplicated in the IAB.

Doge

Same guy:

Doge

I agree with that. But particularly that fit changes for the same person. There seems (maybe I'm reading wrong) to be this view that so and so went to the fit guru and got the perfect fit. Unless that rider is always doing the same kind of ride, I don't think there is such a thing.

tetonrider

no argument there. if one's target even is the kilo, that may be a different fit than someone targeting the cascade prologue (which i think is actually gone this year), vs a 40k. road fits are another thing altogether. all share some common points, but sometimes one can sustain max power in a compromised position for a shorter event, whereas in a 40k the power drop-off really kicks in and overshadows the aero benefit.

there are many great fitters out there, but i think they mostly sell confidence (esp the electronic tools like retul). there is an idea that the guru told me this is right/best, or better yet that the COMPUTER measured me and told me what is optimal.

any good fit/fitter recognizes that things are a bit fluid, and there is no substitute for riding. further, our ability to ride in positions changes over time. hit by a car? that optimal fit may not be so. 5 years more of riding under the belt? maybe one can get more aggressive.

my point is that when it comes to aero there are no absolutes, and the notion that narrow(er) and low(er) is universally faster just ain't so. of course, the number of people who actually test this stuff is a fraction of the number of people who think about it, and the # who think about it are just a fraction of those who are racing.

rankin116

I don't know, the idea of changing saddle position relative to the BB for different races doesn't compute to me. I read all the time about pros that can tell the slightest mm change in their fit between primary and back up bikes. Seems raising the bar a bit for bumpy roads makes sense but I wouldn't mess with the saddle position at all. As is usual, YMMV.

TheKillerPenguin

Watch a Sunday In Hell and see Merckx neurotically adjusting all of the things every time he has an opportunity to do so. Some dudes notice every minor change (I'm one of them), some tinker. I would wager that if I were on a team that supplied me with multiple bikes I would invest the energy into figuring out multiple fits, but that's untenable and/or unreasonable at my level.

rankin116

I think I notice the small changes too. But whatever Doge is doing for his son, it's clearly working. Wasn't meant to be a criticism on him, just feels counter intuitive to me is all.

carpediemracing 

Keep in mind that Merckx had a massive crash early in his career (killed the coach/guy driving the derny - I think the power went out during a derny race and there was a bad crash) and the constant fiddling was (apparently) a result of a bad hip from that crash or something to that effect.

carpediemracing 

You have a relatively short torso (at least compared to me) so it'll be harder to flatten your back more than you have it.

Whenever someone asks about their back I look at the angle of the pelvic cradle. The back of your cradle is pretty vertical, even compared to the guy behind you. It might be that you could rotate it forward, making it easier to flatten out your back. I am probably all wrong on that but that's what I'd say.

I looked for some pictures of Voigt on the bike, who has a pretty forward position, but his pelvic cradle doesn't tilt forward as much as his spine is bend practically in half just above it.

*edit also for what it's worth, for me to get my arms in that forward type position I think I'd need to get my already super long bike even longer, maybe by 5-6 cm, maybe more.

*edit2, now that I look at the big picture does the guy behind you have a 90mm front and 60-75mm rear?

carpediemracing 

Someone imitated me squeezing through a gap in the field at the last race. He did the motion while saying "… and then you got all narrow and squeezed through that s**t." I just did the same action so I could describe it. Arms at side/front, like holding bars. I raised my shoulders, brought in my elbows (like a narrow "I dunno" motion). I think I also twisted a bit so my shoulders weren't square to the road, they were angled, like if you're shouldering through a crowd.

I still managed to brush someone and yelled a "Sorry!" as I went by.

Doge

So I knew I had these. Anyway same rider - my son. The positions.

For him, the white is perfect. A wee less power, much more speed. I would like his elbows in more. This is just resting on the top of the bars.


TT bike (not his) not so good fit.

TheKillerPenguin

This is true, and come to think of it the only other rider I know who does that is a friend of mine that was hit head-on by a car ~7 years ago.

echappist

got it; thanks for the explanantion

jdms mvp

looks good to me.

KVal

Me off the front in my most recent crit. I'd been away about 5 laps at this point, but still gaining ground on the chase group (visible behind me)

Photo: Mike Cullen

echappist

posted at 3:55 am? Sounds like you ain't doing Bunny Hop Crit either

globecanvas

Glory shot of me (Depot) and @theKillerPenguin (white aero helmet) driving the break up the hill at Lime Rock. How could these studs not stay away?!






Photo by Jan Polk, thanks @carpediemracing for the tag.

carpediemracing 

Field sprint. 3rd. Watching a head on video (I think taken by the guy kneeling, he's owner of Bethel Cycle the sponsor), it looks absolutely chaotic and crazy. From my own point of view it seemed relatively straight forward.


Picture by Jan Polk

jdms mvp

o rly? we had da whole pro cat 2/3 SQUADDDDD u should have been there mayneeee PC: IGDA WARNER (https://velogirl22.smugmug.com/)

island rider

I really think these pics tell a great story. There is some suffering in there. They are in order.




Not shown, 8th in a drag race...

Photos by Jan Polk

Ygduf

nice pics, but so many people. best TT yet, here's the new position via Katie Truong. I'm beginning to think this isn't the right frame for me.




and merckx, in which the top 3 won by a minute-ten. The helmet, everyone has them. The skinsuit, there was no time to change. The wheels, top 3 all used carbon, I was the only one on clinchers and the shoe covers I just forgot to remove. I had <30min to ride from the end of tt 1 to the car, change bikes and ride 6-7min back to the start.