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  1. #1
    Robosapien substructure's Avatar
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    Have any of you overtrained? And if so ...

    how could you tell?


    and what did you do to get back on the right track?

  2. #2
    NorCal Climbing Freak
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    Being overtrained is defined as a marked decrease in performance, even when training volume and intensity remain unchanged. I'll also reference the wikipedia entry for the list of possible symptoms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtraining

    Basically, true overtraining can take weeks, if not months, to recover from. Overreaching is a related concept, but less serious, in that several days of solid rest should be enough to overcome it. I've never been overtrained, but I have been seriously overreached. If in doubt, I would say take some rest. It's really easy to have to dedication to train hard and train often. It's more difficult to have the resolve to rest when you need to.

  3. #3
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    overtrained - no.

    under-rested - yes.

    burned out - yes.

    In talking with my coach and other internet "research" I've done (keeping in mind that everyone responds and reacts to the overload of training differently), actual overtraining on a typical amateur racer training schedule is very unlikely. However, under resting is very likely, as is inadequate recovery with proper hydration, stretching/massage/etc. and caloric intake, which is often mis-diagnosed as "overtrained". Burned out - I'll define as when you cant convince yourself to go as hard as you're physically capable or as you have in the recent past because it just hurts too much. This happened to me toward end of last racing season, my legs were good, but long hard breakaway type efforts just hurt too much and I couldnt convince myself to committ.

  4. #4
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substructure
    how could you tell?


    and what did you do to get back on the right track?
    My problem is more lack of rest than overtraining, same net result. I'm taking two days off my bicycle for the first time in a while - after back to back 300+ mile weeks and 25 days straight on the bike. I know this is counterproductive. I want to get faster, hopefully the rest will allow that @ age 49. I KNOW all this, but I've been trying to get fast without rest days because I really have a hard time not riding my bike for a few reasons. But I'll be happier riding 10K miles per year and being faster for weekend rides and races than riding 12K+ miles per year and getting shelled half the time.

    Last summer in Greece I was doing 50-60 mile mountainous rides (12+ miles of climbing daily) every day. After five days of this I take two days off for a boat cruise where I did nothing but loll around in the theraputic warm waters of the Mediterranean for the weekend. Monday I'm back on the climbs and voila, I'm doing them in the 39 x 21 instead of the 23 like I got a shot of EPO. No EPO, just REST and RECOVERY. Friggin duh. Easier said than done for me. The one REALLY tough 6+ mile climb over the steeper ridge (highest one on my parent's island) was MUCH easier the second week, I distinctly recall being astonished at how much stronger I was on that particular nasty climb (probably the toughest climb I've ever done anywhere) the middle of week two after that rest period.

    I'm working on it boys. It's not easy when you're a mileage junkie. I'm Peter and I'm a bikeaholic. Let's all hold hands now and say the Serenity Prayer.

  5. #5
    Isaias NoRacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substructure
    how could you tell?


    and what did you do to get back on the right track?
    If you train with power and use CyclingPeaks software to analyze your power training, you can use the Performance Manager Chart (PMC) to help identify whether you are digging yourself into overtraining syndrome.

    Coggan and Allen suggest that a CTL of 100 TSS/day is the limit that an athlete should maintain for a given training micro-cycle. Of course, like anything else dealing with human physiology, a ceiling of 100 TSS/d all depends on the individual, but they insist that if you have an accurate Functional Threshold Power (FTP) number set in the software, 100 TSS/d is appropriate.

    For me, the 100 TSS/d for CTL -may- be my limit. I became ill after performing a block at or above 100 TSS/d. It may have been coincidence, or it may have been that overall daily stress including training stress helped lower my resistance to the crud that was going around at the time. Whatever the case may be, I'm more sensitive to when I'm approaching or exceeding 100 TSS/d CTL for a micro-cycle.

    EDIT: To add, MDcatV is correct in that what is indicated may be a lack of rest. IMHO, it all depends on the individual, the length of the training block, the amount of stress being induced, and other daily stresses.
    2009 mileage = 14,738 miles; 2010 mileage = 15,234 miles; 2011 mileage = 17,344 miles; 2012 mileage = 11,414 miles; 2013 = 12,169

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    One way to test physical, as opposed to percieved or mental overtraining is to monitor your rest pulse. Take your pulse the first thing in the morning before you get out of bed. As the season progresses, your rest pulse should steadily go down and then stabilise. If one day your pulse is significantly higher than normal, thats a good indication of overtraining.

    How to get back on track? Rest till your pulse goes back down, no other way.
    Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace

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  7. #7
    Robosapien substructure's Avatar
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    Great responses. Thanks guys.

    This was just a question though. I don't want any of you to assume that I think I've overtrained in any way.

  8. #8
    NorCal Climbing Freak
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoRacer
    If you train with power and use CyclingPeaks software to analyze your power training, you can use the Performance Manager Chart (PMC) to help identify whether you are digging yourself into overtraining syndrome.

    Coggan and Allen suggest that a CTL of 100 TSS/day is the limit that an athlete should maintain for a given training micro-cycle. Of course, like anything else dealing with human physiology, a ceiling of 100 TSS/d all depends on the individual, but they insist that if you have an accurate Functional Threshold Power (FTP) number set in the software, 100 TSS/d is appropriate.

    For me, the 100 TSS/d for CTL -may- be my limit. I became ill after performing a block at or above 100 TSS/d. It may have been coincidence, or it may have been that overall daily stress including training stress helped lower my resistance to the crud that was going around at the time. Whatever the case may be, I'm more sensitive to when I'm approaching or exceeding 100 TSS/d CTL for a micro-cycle.

    EDIT: To add, MDcatV is correct in that what is indicated may be a lack of rest. IMHO, it all depends on the individual, the length of the training block, the amount of stress being induced, and other daily stresses.
    Don't suppose you have a link to where they discuss it? Only because I'm on track to be markedly above 100 TSS/d soon at the rate that I'm going. I've seen this mentioned before, but I'm wont to back off my training, as the results so far have been great.

  9. #9
    Isaias NoRacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grebletie
    Don't suppose you have a link to where they discuss it? Only because I'm on track to be markedly above 100 TSS/d soon at the rate that I'm going. I've seen this mentioned before, but I'm wont to back off my training, as the results so far have been great.
    I think it's in their book, but I believe I saw some of this in the Google Wattage forum.

    EDIT: I believe 100-150 TSS/d is what is suggested in the Wattage forum.

    Here's a search:

    http://groups.google.com/group/watta...rch+this+group
    Last edited by NoRacer; 04-04-07 at 07:49 AM.
    2009 mileage = 14,738 miles; 2010 mileage = 15,234 miles; 2011 mileage = 17,344 miles; 2012 mileage = 11,414 miles; 2013 = 12,169

  10. #10
    NorCal Climbing Freak
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    Alright. I have the book, so I'll try to dig it out.

  11. #11
    so whatcha' want? bigskymacadam's Avatar
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    a 15k total elevation century and a 12k total elevation century within two weeks of each other killed by fitness last year. that was after a flat double century and a half dozen crits during the season. took a couple months of mental and physical healing to get over the doldrums of overtraining/overracing.

  12. #12
    Isaias NoRacer's Avatar
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    Here's a quote from the CyclingPeaks 411 page http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/...gerscience.asp :

    Although most attention is likely to be focused on application of the Performance Manager to managing the peaking process, other benefits to this approach clearly exist and should not be overlooked. For example, experience to date indicates that, across a wide variety of athletes and disciplines (e.g., elite amateur track cyclists, masters-age marathon MTB racers, professional road racers), the “optimal” training load seems to lie at a CTL somewhere between 100 and 150 TSS/d. That is, individuals whose CTL is less than 100 TSS/d usually feel that they are undertraining, i.e., they recognize that they could tolerate a heavier training load, if only they had more time available to train and/or if other stresses in life (e.g., job, family) were minimized. (Note that this does not necessarily mean that their performance would improve as a result, which is why the word “optimal” in the sentence above is in quotes). On the other hand, few, if any, athletes seem to be able to sustain a long-term average of >150 TSS/d. Indeed, analysis of powermeter data from riders in the 2006 Tour de France and other hors category international stage races indicates that the hardest stages of such races typically generate a TSS of 200-300, which illustrates how heavy a long-term training load of >150 TSS/d would be (since the average daily TSS of, e.g., the Tour de France is reduced by the inclusion of rest days and shorter stages (e.g., individual time trials), and it is generally considered quite difficult to maintain such an effort for 3 wk, much less for the 3+ mo it would take for CTL to fully “catch up”). Of course, even if this general guideline of 100-150 TSS/d eventually proves to be incorrect, this does not change the fact that the Performance Manager approach makes it possible to quantify the long-term training load of any athlete in a manner that a) takes into account, via TSS, the volume and intensity of their training relative to that individual’s actual ability (i.e., functional threshold power), and b) does so in a manner that is consistent with the effective time course of adaptation to training, as determined using the impulse-response approach.
    Last edited by NoRacer; 04-04-07 at 08:23 AM.
    2009 mileage = 14,738 miles; 2010 mileage = 15,234 miles; 2011 mileage = 17,344 miles; 2012 mileage = 11,414 miles; 2013 = 12,169

  13. #13
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substructure
    Great responses. Thanks guys.

    This was just a question though. I don't want any of you to assume that I think I've overtrained in any way.
    Denial ain't just a river in Egypt boys . Jeesh.

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    I dont think we should use the word overtrained. It has a "good" feel to it when it shouldnt.

    Although its easier than saying "I was undertrained for that last workout effort thus cant get out of bed today"

  15. #15
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    I used to race in the late 80's and early 90's. I followed the 'ride lots' philosophy of training. I was doing 250-300mi a week at the time riding 6-7 days a week. When I would race and have a bad result I figured that it was because I wasn't training hard enough so I would ride more or ride harder. Then I'd have even a worse race the next time out. Again I blamed it on my training so I would ride more or ride harder until I was so tired that I couldn't even train with any intensity and my races got worse and worse. I had no idea that I was just wearing myself out training this way, never giving my body any time at all to recuperate.

    When I started racing again it was kinda of the same situation. I trained really hard and rode a ton of miles and I plateaued and the few races I did were not very good. When I hired my coach the first thing he said was that I was riding way to much. Now I'm 10-12 hours a week and I'm riding better than I ever have.

  16. #16
    so whatcha' want? bigskymacadam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
    Now I'm 10-12 hours a week and I'm riding better than I ever have.
    this speaks volumes. less is more.

  17. #17
    Aut Vincere Aut Mori Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigskymacadam
    this speaks volumes. less is more.
    Motion is carried.

    For most of us 3/4 guys that really is the truth.

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    did anyone read the lastest issue of bicycling (i admit it i bought it, i needed something to read on the train), carmichael has a program to do some massive amounts of riding in a very short time. apparently when done right overtraining can be beneficial
    there will come a time when there will not come a time.

  19. #19
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcates
    did anyone read the lastest issue of bicycling (i admit it i bought it, i needed something to read on the train), carmichael has a program to do some massive amounts of riding in a very short time. apparently when done right overtraining can be beneficial
    There is a big difference between heavy load training and over training. Over training is when you've actually worn yourself down to a point where your performance suffers.

  20. #20
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    I'll take it a step further: After riding an unGodly number of miles in 2006 I discovered that my metabolism seemed to adjust to the constant high mileage/hour riding routine, and my weight just became glued @ 168lbs no matter what I did (the previous Fall I was down to 163lbs). I think your body goes in to total survial mode and your system slows down to compensate. The rest days interrupt that cycle and doesn't make your brain think you're starving to death so that you start burning 10 calories per mile instead of 40. The older you are, the more likely this is to happen (I don't think this happens to bike racers <35 years old so much).

  21. #21
    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad
    I'll take it a step further: After riding an unGodly number of miles in 2006 I discovered that my metabolism seemed to adjust to the constant high mileage/hour riding routine, and my weight just became glued @ 168lbs no matter what I did (the previous Fall I was down to 163lbs). I think your body goes in to total survial mode and your system slows down to compensate. The rest days interrupt that cycle and doesn't make your brain think you're starving to death so that you start burning 10 calories per mile instead of 40. The older you are, the more likely this is to happen (I don't think this happens to bike racers <35 years old so much).

    I've noticed similar things happened with myself. It is so annoying!!! I need to drop 10 lbs and it seems that over the last two years my efficiency has improved significantly. That's great when it comes to endurance events (ie LO2./min needed to push 100W) , but not to losing weight.

    so you are saying that brief rest periods (like rest weeks) helped kick your body into gear so you could get off that plateau? Or did you try other stuff?

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    Ive talked to a former pro about this subject he said he would do macro training. 8 hours 1 week, 12 the next, 16, the next and 22 the next.

    The 22 week would result in over training and he would take 4 really easy days on the bike and end in the best fitness of the season.

    He said he was doing this on his way up to a pro as in while racing citizens or 4s.
    Cat 1 o-meter 33%

  23. #23
    Senior Member rule's Avatar
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    I managed to overtrain just one time. On top of everything else discussed, what I remember most is that I wanted absolutely nothing to do with the bike, not even to think about it. Posting here would even have been a chore. And for me it took well over a month to come back, and even then I had to take it psychotically easy for a while longer. It was so bad that I took the computer off my bike so that I wouldn't get too depressed.

    From there though I just trained smarter and got back on track without too much of an issue. Without the recovery time though nothing that I could have done would have worked.

  24. #24
    Gios my baby hiromian's Avatar
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    Yes. When over traine I get sick alot.
    "Aiyah...Oh no"

  25. #25
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
    I've noticed similar things happened with myself. It is so annoying!!! I need to drop 10 lbs and it seems that over the last two years my efficiency has improved significantly. That's great when it comes to endurance events (ie LO2./min needed to push 100W) , but not to losing weight.

    so you are saying that brief rest periods (like rest weeks) helped kick your body into gear so you could get off that plateau? Or did you try other stuff?
    I don't know, all speculation based on my observations. I haven't rested for two friggin years (only a couple of periods of more than 1 day off the bike in that span. < 20 days off the bike for all of 2006). I will keep you posted. Rest WEEKS?? Don't get carried away. Pcad won't be resting for weeks. That will never happen. 1-3 days at a clip I can handle. I think. We'll see.

    Two days off the bike: hill intervals tomorrow. It will be interesting. I am intimately familiar with these 8-10 minute climbs along with my HR, the gears I ride and my best time on each section. I'll hit it as hard as I can and see if I feel better and/or rider faster. Or slower.

    One thing I'm certain of: my iPod will be CRANKING : ).

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