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  1. #1
    Senior Member
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    In view of recent events...lance is clean?

    In view of both Ullirich and Basso, is it possible that Lance is not involved in this ****storm? How can he be clean in view that #2 and #3 for the last few TdF are dirty as hell.

  2. #2
    Senior Member curiouskid55's Avatar
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    He's a mutant.

  3. #3
    so whatcha' want? bigskymacadam's Avatar
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    he's clean right now

  4. #4
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Everything I've heard so far seems circumstantial.

    I agree it is possible. But unless there is actual, tangible, verifiable evidence, I see no reason to accuse him of doping. Same for any rider of any era.

  5. #5
    Racing iS my Training Pizza Man's Avatar
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    He was clean, it's just that his Trek was that much better than all of the other riders bikes.

  6. #6
    Sensible shoes. CastIron's Avatar
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    I disagree. I think at this point it's presumptive than any serious competitor in the Pro Tour has/was/is/prepared to dope. It strikes me as foolish to think otherwise. Having said that, it puts the dwindling number of 'clean' riders in the dubious position of proving a negative. Which is where Lance is. And Floyd. That covers every TDF winner this century.
    Mike
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  7. #7
    Giving you the business. Cypress's Avatar
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    It took until NOW for you guys to question this?!?!?!?
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    You have received an infraction at Bike Forums.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Blaireau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lxpatterson
    In view of both Ullirich and Basso, is it possible that Lance is not involved in this ****storm? How can he be clean in view that #2 and #3 for the last few TdF are dirty as hell.
    Same logic as ever: Lance Armstrong is clean because he's an American! Just like Landis and Hamilton
    Enough said.
    Big tex is going to jail. Fingers crossed.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Blaireau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress
    It took until NOW for you guys to question this?!?!?!?

    lol,
    Big tex is going to jail. Fingers crossed.

  10. #10
    . Namenda's Avatar
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    Was Lance clean? Don't know.

    Were Indurain or Hinault clean? Don't know, either. How about Merckx? Depends on your definition of "clean".

    Pantani? Dirty. Hamilton? Dirty. Ullrich? Dirty. Landis? Probably dirty, too.

    I guess my point is, are we now assuming guilt by association? Without a positive drug test, or a credible witness that can say "yes, he's dirty", doesn't anyone think it may be a bit of a stretch to call everyone guilty?

    I've heard some dopers use the excuse that they had to do it "to survive". Although I don't like the choice of words, I can understand the meaning. The raises the question...were these guys trying to survive in a climate where all the top riders were dopers, or were they simply not good enough, and felt they had to cheat to compete?

  11. #11
    Senior Member reef58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaireau
    Same logic as ever: Lance Armstrong is clean because he's an American! Just like Landis and Hamilton
    Enough said.
    I think you are searching for red herrings. There are a few that think that, but from what I see most agree they are all most likely guilty. It seems you have an axe to grind.

    Richard

  12. #12
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    Nobody can prove that Lance was "dirty". Ergo, he is clean.
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Trevor98's Avatar
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    Sadly the world may never know.
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    -trevor
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. (Robert J. Hanlon)

  14. #14
    Senior Member Blaireau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namenda
    How about Merckx? Depends on your definition of "clean".
    Merckx was suspended for doping for a season: does that fit your definition of clean ?!?
    Big tex is going to jail. Fingers crossed.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Blaireau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reef58
    I think you are searching for red herrings. There are a few that think that, but from what I see most agree they are all most likely guilty. It seems you have an axe to grind.

    Richard

    Check BF's; check the reaction on Landis, on Lance; what's amazing is that there is a double standard based on nationality; it ain't no red herring.
    Big tex is going to jail. Fingers crossed.

  16. #16
    Edificating dmotoguy's Avatar
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    it has nothing to do with nationality, but a lot to do with facts.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member reef58's Avatar
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    I disagree. Show me the posts where the masses are claiming Tyler is innocent. Reading through the Floyd posts, and I said he was guilty last year, the most contention arises from the testing procedures, not necessarily Floyds guilt or innocence. Lance has never been caught, so I can't fault people for thinking he is innocent although I disagree with them.

    I could survey the public, and likely find people that think the world is flat, martians are living among us, OJ is innocent, and clouds are made from marshmallows. I don't think it is because it is the American way to think. You will never get 100% agreement on any subject ever regardless of nationality.

    Richard

  18. #18
    . Namenda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaireau
    Merckx was suspended for doping for a season: does that fit your definition of clean ?!?

    And yet, he's still lauded as the greatest of all time. I understand that rules were different in his day, and use of stimulants was rampant. Still, though, by what standards should modern-day riders be judged? If David Millar suddenly starts flying up mountains, and wins 9 TdF's in a row, is he the greatest ever? Or just a (possibly) reformed doper? If Pantani had cleaned up his act, rather than killing himself, would he be recognized as amongst the best ever?

    Hypotheticals aside, how can we judge Armstrong as a doper, when no proof has been presented? Other riders have been nailed with rock-solid, incontrovertible evidence. Armstrong hasn't. I, personally, can't consider him a doper. If damning evidence is presented in the future, I reserve the right to change my mind.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Blaireau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmotoguy
    it has nothing to do with nationality, but a lot to do with facts.
    Fact: Landis tested positive. Fact: he was largely considered innocent by a majority of US posters on BF's despite the tests and his transparent BS, oh, I'm sorry wrong initials, PR (see sig line).

    Fact: many other riders facing less dauting odds were automatically considered guilty without a positive test such as Basso or Ullrich. (This long Before Basso confessed to attempted doping, btw).


    You figure it out.
    Big tex is going to jail. Fingers crossed.

  20. #20
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    Come on, your head is in the sand if you think Lance was clean. Think of the guys he was pummeling, Basso, Hamilton, Ullrich and they were doped!

  21. #21
    . Namenda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaireau
    Fact: Landis tested positive. Fact: he was largely considered innocent by a majority of US posters on BF's despite the tests and his transparent BS, oh, I'm sorry wrong initials, PR (see sig line).

    Fact: many other riders facing less dauting odds were automatically considered guilty without a positive test such as Basso or Ullrich. (This long Before Basso confessed to attempted doping, btw).


    You figure it out.

    I don't know about that. A lot of folks here were ardent supporters of both Basso and Ullrich. They both have faced considerable ridicule lately, but it has been somewhat deserved based upon their long-standing protestations of innocence.

  22. #22
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miked976
    Come on, your head is in the sand if you think Lance was clean. Think of the guys he was pummeling, Basso, Hamilton, Ullrich and they were doped!
    What a faulty argument. So just because Lance beat guys who have been/could be convicted of doping, he must have doped too? That's completely nonsensical.
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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  23. #23
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaireau
    Merckx was suspended for doping for a season: does that fit your definition of clean ?!?
    What season would that be?

  24. #24
    Edificating dmotoguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaireau
    Fact: Landis tested positive. Fact: he was largely considered innocent by a majority of US posters on BF's despite the tests and his transparent BS, oh, I'm sorry wrong initials, PR (see sig line).

    Fact: many other riders facing less dauting odds were automatically considered guilty without a positive test such as Basso or Ullrich. (This long Before Basso confessed to attempted doping, btw).


    You figure it out.

    Fact: Landis' Case is not over, so we can both hold our judgement until then. You must have a lot more facts about his case than even he does.

    I gave Basso and Ullrich both the benifit of the doubt. All riders are innocent until proven guilty in my mind.
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  25. #25
    Edificating dmotoguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99
    What season would that be?
    it was just the giro of 69
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