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Old 05-10-07, 04:11 PM   #1
lxpatterson
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In view of recent events...lance is clean?

In view of both Ullirich and Basso, is it possible that Lance is not involved in this ****storm? How can he be clean in view that #2 and #3 for the last few TdF are dirty as hell.
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Old 05-10-07, 04:15 PM   #2
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He's a mutant.
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Old 05-10-07, 04:17 PM   #3
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he's clean right now
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Old 05-10-07, 04:40 PM   #4
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Everything I've heard so far seems circumstantial.

I agree it is possible. But unless there is actual, tangible, verifiable evidence, I see no reason to accuse him of doping. Same for any rider of any era.
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Old 05-10-07, 04:49 PM   #5
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He was clean, it's just that his Trek was that much better than all of the other riders bikes.
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Old 05-10-07, 04:52 PM   #6
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I disagree. I think at this point it's presumptive than any serious competitor in the Pro Tour has/was/is/prepared to dope. It strikes me as foolish to think otherwise. Having said that, it puts the dwindling number of 'clean' riders in the dubious position of proving a negative. Which is where Lance is. And Floyd. That covers every TDF winner this century.
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Old 05-10-07, 05:13 PM   #7
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It took until NOW for you guys to question this?!?!?!?
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Old 05-10-07, 05:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lxpatterson
In view of both Ullirich and Basso, is it possible that Lance is not involved in this ****storm? How can he be clean in view that #2 and #3 for the last few TdF are dirty as hell.
Same logic as ever: Lance Armstrong is clean because he's an American! Just like Landis and Hamilton
Enough said.
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Old 05-10-07, 05:22 PM   #9
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It took until NOW for you guys to question this?!?!?!?

lol,
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Old 05-10-07, 05:29 PM   #10
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Was Lance clean? Don't know.

Were Indurain or Hinault clean? Don't know, either. How about Merckx? Depends on your definition of "clean".

Pantani? Dirty. Hamilton? Dirty. Ullrich? Dirty. Landis? Probably dirty, too.

I guess my point is, are we now assuming guilt by association? Without a positive drug test, or a credible witness that can say "yes, he's dirty", doesn't anyone think it may be a bit of a stretch to call everyone guilty?

I've heard some dopers use the excuse that they had to do it "to survive". Although I don't like the choice of words, I can understand the meaning. The raises the question...were these guys trying to survive in a climate where all the top riders were dopers, or were they simply not good enough, and felt they had to cheat to compete?
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Old 05-10-07, 05:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaireau
Same logic as ever: Lance Armstrong is clean because he's an American! Just like Landis and Hamilton
Enough said.
I think you are searching for red herrings. There are a few that think that, but from what I see most agree they are all most likely guilty. It seems you have an axe to grind.

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Old 05-10-07, 05:56 PM   #12
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Nobody can prove that Lance was "dirty". Ergo, he is clean.
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Old 05-10-07, 06:00 PM   #13
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Sadly the world may never know.
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Old 05-10-07, 06:17 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Namenda
How about Merckx? Depends on your definition of "clean".
Merckx was suspended for doping for a season: does that fit your definition of clean ?!?
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Old 05-10-07, 06:19 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by reef58
I think you are searching for red herrings. There are a few that think that, but from what I see most agree they are all most likely guilty. It seems you have an axe to grind.

Richard

Check BF's; check the reaction on Landis, on Lance; what's amazing is that there is a double standard based on nationality; it ain't no red herring.
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Old 05-10-07, 06:22 PM   #16
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it has nothing to do with nationality, but a lot to do with facts.
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Old 05-10-07, 06:26 PM   #17
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I disagree. Show me the posts where the masses are claiming Tyler is innocent. Reading through the Floyd posts, and I said he was guilty last year, the most contention arises from the testing procedures, not necessarily Floyds guilt or innocence. Lance has never been caught, so I can't fault people for thinking he is innocent although I disagree with them.

I could survey the public, and likely find people that think the world is flat, martians are living among us, OJ is innocent, and clouds are made from marshmallows. I don't think it is because it is the American way to think. You will never get 100% agreement on any subject ever regardless of nationality.

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Old 05-10-07, 06:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaireau
Merckx was suspended for doping for a season: does that fit your definition of clean ?!?

And yet, he's still lauded as the greatest of all time. I understand that rules were different in his day, and use of stimulants was rampant. Still, though, by what standards should modern-day riders be judged? If David Millar suddenly starts flying up mountains, and wins 9 TdF's in a row, is he the greatest ever? Or just a (possibly) reformed doper? If Pantani had cleaned up his act, rather than killing himself, would he be recognized as amongst the best ever?

Hypotheticals aside, how can we judge Armstrong as a doper, when no proof has been presented? Other riders have been nailed with rock-solid, incontrovertible evidence. Armstrong hasn't. I, personally, can't consider him a doper. If damning evidence is presented in the future, I reserve the right to change my mind.
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Old 05-10-07, 06:29 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dmotoguy
it has nothing to do with nationality, but a lot to do with facts.
Fact: Landis tested positive. Fact: he was largely considered innocent by a majority of US posters on BF's despite the tests and his transparent BS, oh, I'm sorry wrong initials, PR (see sig line).

Fact: many other riders facing less dauting odds were automatically considered guilty without a positive test such as Basso or Ullrich. (This long Before Basso confessed to attempted doping, btw).


You figure it out.
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Old 05-10-07, 06:30 PM   #20
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Come on, your head is in the sand if you think Lance was clean. Think of the guys he was pummeling, Basso, Hamilton, Ullrich and they were doped!
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Old 05-10-07, 06:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaireau
Fact: Landis tested positive. Fact: he was largely considered innocent by a majority of US posters on BF's despite the tests and his transparent BS, oh, I'm sorry wrong initials, PR (see sig line).

Fact: many other riders facing less dauting odds were automatically considered guilty without a positive test such as Basso or Ullrich. (This long Before Basso confessed to attempted doping, btw).


You figure it out.

I don't know about that. A lot of folks here were ardent supporters of both Basso and Ullrich. They both have faced considerable ridicule lately, but it has been somewhat deserved based upon their long-standing protestations of innocence.
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Old 05-10-07, 06:33 PM   #22
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Come on, your head is in the sand if you think Lance was clean. Think of the guys he was pummeling, Basso, Hamilton, Ullrich and they were doped!
What a faulty argument. So just because Lance beat guys who have been/could be convicted of doping, he must have doped too? That's completely nonsensical.
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Old 05-10-07, 06:36 PM   #23
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Merckx was suspended for doping for a season: does that fit your definition of clean ?!?
What season would that be?
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Old 05-10-07, 06:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaireau
Fact: Landis tested positive. Fact: he was largely considered innocent by a majority of US posters on BF's despite the tests and his transparent BS, oh, I'm sorry wrong initials, PR (see sig line).

Fact: many other riders facing less dauting odds were automatically considered guilty without a positive test such as Basso or Ullrich. (This long Before Basso confessed to attempted doping, btw).


You figure it out.

Fact: Landis' Case is not over, so we can both hold our judgement until then. You must have a lot more facts about his case than even he does.

I gave Basso and Ullrich both the benifit of the doubt. All riders are innocent until proven guilty in my mind.
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Old 05-10-07, 06:48 PM   #25
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What season would that be?
it was just the giro of 69
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