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  1. #1
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    1 minute intervals

    Last night I decided to do some 1 minute intervals on the trainer.

    I was initially going to do a 12345 pyramid but after that first interval there was no way I was going to be recovered enough to do go hard after only one minute rest so I decided to fully recover and just do the 1 minute intervals instead.

    You are supposed to do each interval as hard as you can right? I ask because I had a hard time completing all 8 at a high effort.

    On the first interval I ended up setting a new high for 1 minute power but it took me 5 minutes to recover.

    On my second attempt my power dropped signifigantly even though my HR stayed about the same.

    I couldnt even complete my third attempt. After 40 seconds I had to give up.

    I was able to get a higher power output on my forth attempt then my second but my power was still down from the first even though my HR was matched.

    I had to extend my rest interval by 30 seconds before starting my fifth attempt and when I finally went my power was down over 100W off my first attempt.

    It took over a minute less to recover before my sixth attempt and I was able to bring my power up slightly.

    My seventh attempt was really weak. So I took an extra minute to recover after it.

    On the 8th and final attempt my power went back up a little bit.


    So I ask you. Am I doing these right? Should there be such a drop off in power after the first attempt or should I pace myself so I can complete each interval at roughly the same power output? Why did I have so much trouble on my third attempt? Weak mind or lack of recovery? Since my last interval wasnt that much lower then most of my other attempts, besides the first one, should I have kept going until I was unable to produce the same power anymore?

    I did these intervals hard. I was gasping for air at the end of each one but I never reached my max hr of 180. Does that mean I should have went even harder? My tested threshold HR is 170 so I am not so sure why these hurt so much. Could it be because my max and lthr were determined off the trainer?

    Code:
    First   516W 174BPM 5 minute rest 110BPM
    Second  430W 171BPM 5 minute rest 105BPM
    Third   352W 160BPM 5 minute rest 111BPM only 40 sec interval 
    Fourth  450W 174BPM 5:30 min rest 117BPM
    Fifth   412W 172BPM 4:12 min rest 115BPM
    Sixth   426W 173BPM 5 minute rest 110BPM
    Seventh 355W 168BPM 6:09 min rest 102BPM
    Eighth  418W 172BPM
    Can you power dudes determine anything from the graphs?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    My usual 1-minute interval workout is only 7 intervals, and the last one is kind of a joke. That's about all I can take at the effort I'm putting into them. I go as hard as I can for a minute (which isn't as hard as a sprint...). I don't know about power though -- I just ride hard.

  3. #3
    部門ニ/自転車オタク NomadVW's Avatar
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    I don't do em. that's my fix, i s'pose. But almost all of my races are 3 hrs+ so my short intervals are usually 4 minutes. the coach has me do 30 sec on/30 sec off intervals in the week or two prior to shorter races but the training program is built around longer road races.
    Envision, Energize, Enable

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    Senior Member zimbo's Avatar
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    If you go your absolute hardest, you're likely to see at least some dropoff with each successive effort. The whole point of these is to get to where you can recover better. You're not likely to see your Max HR after a 1-minute interval because so much of the effort is anaerobic.

    --Steve

  5. #5
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets
    My usual 1-minute interval workout is only 7 intervals, and the last one is kind of a joke. That's about all I can take at the effort I'm putting into them. I go as hard as I can for a minute (which isn't as hard as a sprint...). I don't know about power though -- I just ride hard.
    Do you remain seated the entire time you are doing a 1 minute interval?

  6. #6
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo
    If you go your absolute hardest, you're likely to see at least some dropoff with each successive effort. The whole point of these is to get to where you can recover better. You're not likely to see your Max HR after a 1-minute interval because so much of the effort is anaerobic.

    --Steve
    That makes sense. This is probably an obvious answer but where and how do you see gains in recovery?

  7. #7
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NomadVW
    I don't do em. that's my fix, i s'pose. But almost all of my races are 3 hrs+ so my short intervals are usually 4 minutes. the coach has me do 30 sec on/30 sec off intervals in the week or two prior to shorter races but the training program is built around longer road races.
    I wish my races were like that but seeing as mainly all races here are shorter crits the 1 min interval is a good obvious training method. I have to be honest though and say that half the reason I want to do them is just to make my 1 min number in the power profile go up.

  8. #8
    部門ニ/自転車オタク NomadVW's Avatar
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    Not to hijack the thread, but one of the things I like about racing in Japan is there's not some assumption that newer racers can't handle the longer distances so I can still do 120-250km road races. Getting back to the states and being restricted to shorter races because of category is going to be annoying.
    Envision, Energize, Enable

  9. #9
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    It seems to be like that in the western part of the US too. There seems to be more longer, 100k+, races for 5s out that way then here on the east.

  10. #10
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riskus
    Do you remain seated the entire time you are doing a 1 minute interval?
    I usually start with a mild sprint out of the saddle, in the drops, to try to shock my system into the effort, since it's so short. At 0:50, I stand and sprint all-out to the end, which is a little ridiculous at that point but my speed does pick up slightly (or stops falling), it guarantees that I'll hurt like I should, and it keeps my training partners from closing in on me

    Quote Originally Posted by NomadVW
    I don't do em. that's my fix, i s'pose. But almost all of my races are 3 hrs+ so my short intervals are usually 4 minutes. the coach has me do 30 sec on/30 sec off intervals in the week or two prior to shorter races but the training program is built around longer road races.
    Shorter intervals help you deal with surges and recover after them. It has nothing to do with the length of the event, and everything to do with the length of an effort. I learned about them from my US National Team mentor way back in '91. He did a lot of 6-hour races in Europe, was the CO state TT champ, and got 5th in the Mt. Evans hill climb ahead of Alexi Grewal. These intervals help you crest hills with the pack, close gaps, attack, and recover for the next effort.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NomadVW
    Not to hijack the thread, but one of the things I like about racing in Japan is there's not some assumption that newer racers can't handle the longer distances so I can still do 120-250km road races. Getting back to the states and being restricted to shorter races because of category is going to be annoying.
    When you get back, sign up for LOTOJA. It's a USCF sanctioned race that is 206 miles long!!

  12. #12
    NorCal Climbing Freak
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    Insufficient rest prevents your body from recharging its anaerobic capacity. With only 1 minute of rest between intervals, your anaerobic intervals are must more reliant on aerobic systems than you might think.

    You also need to pick a power level that you can complete for each subsequent interval. I chose to do my 1 minute intervals at 150% of FTP earlier this week, and that worked for me. Something similar might work for you.

    Also, you should probably just keep going until your absolutely can't make the power level anymore. Just don't let things drop below 120% of FTP, as by that point, things are getting closer to VO2 than anaerobic.

  13. #13
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    OK next time I will shoot for something like 415W since i was able to maintain close to that on average for all the intervals.

    looking at the graphs it seems like I dont need to rest more then like 3 minutes.

  14. #14
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riskus
    OK next time I will shoot for something like 415W since i was able to maintain close to that on average for all the intervals.

    looking at the graphs it seems like I dont need to rest more then like 3 minutes.
    +1 -- 3 minutes is about how long I rest.

    FWIW, in the coming weeks I'm going to try doing 1-minute intervals from LT. I'm going to do a re-test of my LT first, and once I feel comfortable with that number, I'll do my intervals by getting up to LT, holding it for 2 minutes, then do 1-minute all-out. I'll have to experiment with recovery, but I'll probably be getting within 6 or 7 beats of max, so it will take longer to get back down.

    I'll post back with how it's going after I learn more.

  15. #15
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    i cant wait to hear how those go. I really want to eventually do a lot of work at a high level with even higher surges thrown in for race simulation.

  16. #16
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riskus
    i cant wait to hear how those go. I really want to eventually do a lot of work at a high level with even higher surges thrown in for race simulation.
    Try the "microburst" workout from the good book. Much pain.

    Alternatively, I do a modified version of an interval from a Carmichael DVD, the SteadyState/PowerInterval surge. Basically it's a 2-minute interval where you go 30sec at FTP, then 30sec all-out, 30sec FTP, 30sec all-out, then recover. It's a beeyatch because you're not getting a full recovery for that 2nd surge.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  17. #17
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    yeah the microbursts look good for crits but i want to try some others similiar to the race winning intervals too.

  18. #18
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    Maybe your fitness progression just isnt ready for this type of workout yet. When I do 1' intervals, the workout is typically 2 sets; 1st is 5x1'on/2'off, 2nd is 5x1'on/1'off. It's a really hard workout for me, but I'm able to complete it. I'm not a coach so this is just an opinion, but if you're not able to complete 1 set with full recovery in between reps, either you've too much accumulated fatigued from prior day(s) efforts, or you're just not ready for these types of intervals and should probably go back to FTP development (i.e. FTP work via threshold and tempo intensity workouts.)

  19. #19
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    That is a possibility. Since I havent been following any sort of structured plan I very well may not have the fitness for it. I could always use more threshold work anyway.

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    I'm not trying to discourage, and I'm certainly not trying to start a base miles vs. no base argument - those have been hashed out ad nauseum. The way the coach I work with believes, building fitness is like any building, you've got to start with a big stable foundation (zone 2/3 saddle time), construct the walls (zone 4/LT or FTP development), then top it off with a good roof (short maximal intervals like the <5' with little or no recovery types). If anything is missing then the building isnt stable. Just a WAG on my part, but maybe you're putting on the "roof" on without finishing the "walls".

  21. #21
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    nah your not discouraging me. I think its totally possible you are right. I have a hard time determining if I genuinely cant finish something sometimes so I begin to question my will over fitness.

    I basically chalked up base work as a lost cause this season since I started so late so its very likely I never built one up and just moved on to racing and intervals too fast.

  22. #22
    Theodore Roosevelt's idol TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo
    If you go your absolute hardest, you're likely to see at least some dropoff with each successive effort. The whole point of these is to get to where you can recover better. You're not likely to see your Max HR after a 1-minute interval because so much of the effort is anaerobic.

    --Steve
    +1. I don't think you should be aiming for a less than max effort, an effort you can keep constant over the 8 intervals. If you can do 516W on your first effort, do 516W on your first effort, don't hold yourself back at 415W. The point of the workout is to kick your ass and then try to recover best you can before the next interval. Progress can be measured by how fast (or slow) your power drops off on successive efforts. By holding yourself back like that, you'd kind of be defeating the purpose of the workout.

    Just IMO.
    Masochism is a training adaptation.

  23. #23
    NorCal Climbing Freak
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    Looking at the graph, you are going too hard out of the gate. Maybe 415 watts is too low, but your pacing strategy for the intervals should be to maintain an even power output for the duration. The first two intervals show a pretty steady downward trend, which is not what you are looking for.

    The third and fourth look the best, as the effort remains roughly constant. On the next efforts, however, I noticed at the end that there are some spikes, indicating you maybe had trouble even keeping that power output steady in the last 30 seconds.

    I'll try to get a graph of what my Tuesday 1 min and 30 second intervals looked like for comparison.

  24. #24
    NorCal Climbing Freak
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    This is taken from my most recent interval session. I chose 420 watts as the average to shoot for during the 1 minute intervals, and 550 as the average to shoot for during the 30 second intervals. For the 30 second intervals, I could ony manage 540 for the duration, however.

    This was all done on a trainer, so it's pretty even throughout, but you should get the idea from the interval portion that there isn't a steady downward trend, as in your interval example.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  25. #25
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    yes after the first few intervals i was having trouble maintaining a high power level. I was more concerned with keeping the watts as high as i could rather then steady. This is where I have a problem determining effort. When I see "all out effort" I think "go as hard as I can and try to last a whole minute" even if it means spiking output instead of steady. Obviously I could be destroying myself too soon to be able to finish the whole interval but I have a hard time otherwise determining if I am going hard enough.
    Whenever I manage to keep a steady pace I always feel like I must not have went hard enough.

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