Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    Geosynchronous Falconeer recursive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    My Bikes
    2006 Raleigh Rush Hour, Campy Habanero Team Ti, Soma Double Cross
    Posts
    6,312
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Meaning of a flattened power curve?

    Rather than try to explain what I'm talking about, I'll just attach an image. They're worth 1000 words you know. I really have to hand it to myself for my mspaint skills.

    It's possible that what I think is normal really isn't, but I've seen that general shape on graphs in a few places.

    So my question, is what does my graph indicate? My first guess is a lack of muscular strength. Do I need to hit some weights?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Bring the pain.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    In the middle of horse country, in The Garden State
    Posts
    3,112
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    That's a good question. I'm not sure, but I'd like to know the answer since I see similar things in my data. You might try posting on the wattage forum. I've posted there before and got answers from Andy Coggan.

  3. #3
    Edificating dmotoguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    boise idaho
    My Bikes
    2005 Specialized Tarmac Comp, Steyr Clubman, Motobecane Phantom Cross Uno, Cannondale Caad9, IRO bffgss
    Posts
    2,442
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    where is said wattage forum?
    Ultimate Cat -o- Meter
    X-x0x-x-X - 40%

  4. #4
    Geosynchronous Falconeer recursive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    My Bikes
    2006 Raleigh Rush Hour, Campy Habanero Team Ti, Soma Double Cross
    Posts
    6,312
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dmotoguy
    where is said wattage forum?
    I think it's this one: http://groups.google.com/group/wattage?hl=en
    Bring the pain.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    In the middle of horse country, in The Garden State
    Posts
    3,112
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by recursive

    that's the one. A lot of power guru's hang out there.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    525
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Not sure what the source of your "normal" graph is. I'm guessing this would be the graph of someone whose watts/kg were on the same rung/level across the board of Allen/Coggan's model (a solid all-around rider).

    It's hard to say by looking at the the recursive curve (red line) what your strengths/weaknesses are wt. data points along the curve. What is your power at 5s and 1/5/20/60 min power and what is your weight?

    What kind of racing suit your abilities? Are you a field sprinter? Climber? Someone who goes with the decisive attack on 3-5 minute hill and then drives the break? If you aren't doing crits and lots of field sprinting I'm not sure that working on the 5-30 seconds part of your curve will pay off in the end (if that is your weakness).

    Last, for what it's worth the pundits on the power forum are convinced that the only way to get stronger in any cycling discipline is to focus on on-bike activities only. So if you are doing lots of crtis and RRs w field sprints and your 5 second power is the issue then you've got to incorporate more sprint work into your routine, rather than go to the gymn (in their opinion).

    gene r

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    525
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Here's a link to the Cycling Peaks page that discussses assessing what kind of rider you are and your strengths/weaknesses based on your power profile.

    http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/...11/profile.asp

    I know that I'm a classic /\ pattern. I can outsprint the average climber, and outclimb the average sprinter. My real strength is my AWC and 5 min power so I train my weaknesses and look for races or employ tactics that play to my strengths.

    FWIW I spent a lot of this yr upping my FTP and its helped me arrive at decisive climbs in a fresher state, but in our area if your not pushing an FTP 4.3+ watts/kg your not a contender in hilly RRs, and that's in the Masters Cat 4 races!

    gene r

  8. #8
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    MABRA
    My Bikes
    2007 CAAD9; 2008 Giant Bowery; 2008 Surly Crosscheck
    Posts
    13,119
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Recursive,

    Where did you get the "normal" curve from? I don't think one can normalize mean-max power curves, as every individual is different. Here's mine:



    And here's my power profile:
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
    ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!

  9. #9
    NorCal Climbing Freak
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    872
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bdcheung
    Recursive,

    Where did you get the "normal" curve from? I don't think one can normalize mean-max power curves, as every individual is different. Here's mine:



    And here's my power profile:
    Can I borrow some of that 5 second power?

  10. #10
    wavylines
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Bull City
    Posts
    546
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by recursive
    It's possible that what I think is normal really isn't
    Bingo.

    My first guess is a lack of muscular strength.
    That's half of it. What keeps the curve from going up forever like your "normal" line is the limit on your neuromuscular power. To develop more peak power, you can either train your neural system to push faster or your muscles to push harder. So if you can raise your cadence 10% while pushing the same force, you'll raise your power 10%. Ditto same cadence at 10% more force. You can train the "faster" part by doing little-ring form sprints. Opinions are mixed as to whether on-bike low-cadence high-force work or off-bike weights are better for training the "harder" part ... or even whether it's worth training.

  11. #11
    Geosynchronous Falconeer recursive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    My Bikes
    2006 Raleigh Rush Hour, Campy Habanero Team Ti, Soma Double Cross
    Posts
    6,312
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by LT Intolerant
    Not sure what the source of your "normal" graph is. I'm guessing this would be the graph of someone whose watts/kg were on the same rung/level across the board of Allen/Coggan's model (a solid all-around rider).

    It's hard to say by looking at the the recursive curve (red line) what your strengths/weaknesses are wt. data points along the curve. What is your power at 5s and 1/5/20/60 min power and what is your weight?

    What kind of racing suit your abilities? Are you a field sprinter? Climber? Someone who goes with the decisive attack on 3-5 minute hill and then drives the break? If you aren't doing crits and lots of field sprinting I'm not sure that working on the 5-30 seconds part of your curve will pay off in the end (if that is your weakness).

    Last, for what it's worth the pundits on the power forum are convinced that the only way to get stronger in any cycling discipline is to focus on on-bike activities only. So if you are doing lots of crtis and RRs w field sprints and your 5 second power is the issue then you've got to incorporate more sprint work into your routine, rather than go to the gymn (in their opinion).

    gene r
    I don't have any numbers handy right now, but crits are actually usually my strong point. I can't TT, but I can sprint, and almost always take at least a few places before the line.

    Perhaps I need to do some more formal measurements before really taking action. This was something that I just noticed looking at the profiles for my last few races. Actually, it looks not entirely unlike bdc's. Except lower on that left side. Maybe lower everywhere.
    Bring the pain.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    525
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by recursive
    I don't have any numbers handy right now, but crits are actually usually my strong point. I can't TT, but I can sprint, and almost always take at least a few places before the line.

    Perhaps I need to do some more formal measurements before really taking action. This was something that I just noticed looking at the profiles for my last few races. Actually, it looks not entirely unlike bdc's. Except lower on that left side. Maybe lower everywhere.
    If the extreme left side of your curve is flat in the 1-3 seconds range and you're getting good results in field sprints I wouldn't worry too much (about the flattening of the curve). If however your curve was flat for 20-30 seconds, I'd say add a sprint routine to your normal training week. Here's a workout one coach prescribed that will increase your attack speed and sprint...

    Get in a good warm up first - then do (1) 5 minute blast at max HRů. Cruise for 10 minutes & then do (4) 1 minute efforts at the max you can do, recovering for 1minute between each. Make sure that each effort is a HARD,HARD JUMP from 24mph .Then 5minutes easy. Then do (5) 30 second efforts at max pace(sprint!) recovering for 1minute between each. Then do 10 minutes easy and then do (3) 2 minute efforts at max pace with 1minute recovery. Then cool-down.

    gene r

  13. #13
    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Saratoga, CA
    Posts
    11,496
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by LT Intolerant
    If the extreme left side of your curve is flat in the 1-3 seconds range and you're getting good results in field sprints I wouldn't worry too much (about the flattening of the curve). If however your curve was flat for 20-30 seconds, I'd say add a sprint routine to your normal training week. Here's a workout one coach prescribed that will increase your attack speed and sprint...

    Get in a good warm up first - then do (1) 5 minute blast at max HR…. Cruise for 10 minutes & then do (4) 1 minute efforts at the max you can do, recovering for 1minute between each. Make sure that each effort is a HARD,HARD JUMP from 24mph .Then 5minutes easy. Then do (5) 30 second efforts at max pace(sprint!) recovering for 1minute between each. Then do 10 minutes easy and then do (3) 2 minute efforts at max pace with 1minute recovery. Then cool-down.

    gene r
    Is that for real? A 5-minute interval at max-HR the entire time? Or hit max-HR by the end of it?

  14. #14
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    MABRA
    My Bikes
    2007 CAAD9; 2008 Giant Bowery; 2008 Surly Crosscheck
    Posts
    13,119
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
    Is that for real? A 5-minute interval at max-HR the entire time? Or hit max-HR by the end of it?
    I don't think "max HR" is used in its traditional training context. The interval described is supposed to be performed at the highest sustainable effort for five minutes.
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
    ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    525
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
    Is that for real? A 5-minute interval at max-HR the entire time? Or hit max-HR by the end of it?
    Not "max" HR. It's the hrate you can sustain for 5 mins. Think of it as a hard 5 min TT, as you would ride a prologue TT.

    gene r

  16. #16
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Schertz TX
    My Bikes
    Old ones
    Posts
    2,463
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think what it means in simple terms is that you are slow.

  17. #17
    Isaias NoRacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Essex, MD
    My Bikes
    Ridley X-Fire (carbon, white)
    Posts
    5,174
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by recursive
    So my question, is what does my graph indicate?

    IMHO, all it indicates is that you have a lack of data points in the flat area of your graph. The trend indicates you have the potential to hold a tangent with the "normal" curve, except you haven't created any points there, yet.
    2009 mileage = 14,738 miles; 2010 mileage = 15,234 miles; 2011 mileage = 17,344 miles; 2012 mileage = 11,414 miles; 2013 = 12,169

  18. #18
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    MABRA
    My Bikes
    2007 CAAD9; 2008 Giant Bowery; 2008 Surly Crosscheck
    Posts
    13,119
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by NoRacer
    IMHO, all it indicates is that you have a lack of data points in the flat area of your graph. The trend indicates you have the potential to hold a tangent with the "normal" curve, except you haven't created any points there, yet.
    The "normal" curve really isn't normal.
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
    ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!

  19. #19
    Isaias NoRacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Essex, MD
    My Bikes
    Ridley X-Fire (carbon, white)
    Posts
    5,174
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bdcheung
    The "normal" curve really isn't normal.
    I believe his drawing to be conceptual, not accurate.

    The following is what mine currently looks like:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    2009 mileage = 14,738 miles; 2010 mileage = 15,234 miles; 2011 mileage = 17,344 miles; 2012 mileage = 11,414 miles; 2013 = 12,169

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    2,904
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by NoRacer
    I believe his drawing to be conceptual, not accurate.

    The following is what mine currently looks like:
    And it looks pretty normal to me.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •