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  1. #1
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    Hey !! You can't do that !!

    Even better than winning for me, was being yelled at during a race !!

    A guy yells "on your left" as he cuts inside me on the corner, he's got another guy on his wheel. I see them out of the corner of my eye and I give them room. A third guy wants to follow them, but he left a gap. I jump behind the second guy and in front of the third guy. Then I hear, "Hey !! You can't do that, Yellow !! (I'm wearing generic yellow) I guess he was a rookie, and fighting for position in the New Britain crit with 3 laps to go, I wasn't about to explain the finer points of crit riding to him.

    If you're reading this, then Yes, I CAN do that ! I hope he learned not to leave gaps !! I wonder if he was the jerk that bounced off my hip and caused a crash on the next lap.

    I must say, though, that in the 4/5 race, most guys rode pretty well. A few squirrels, but not as bad as I was afraid of. (I have experience, but just getting back into it)

  2. #2
    Outgunned and outclassed
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    Hmmm...One of my friends (who won that race) said there were a lot of sketchy guys in his race. He mentioned a TCCC guy and one in plain yellow in specific. Not trying to start anything, just, maybe, you want to be a little more predictable in the pack.
    Patience - Consistency - Motivation

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  3. #3
    NorCal Climbing Freak
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    Quote Originally Posted by VosBike
    Hmmm...One of my friends (who won that race) said there were a lot of sketchy guys in his race. He mentioned a TCCC guy and one in plain yellow in specific. Not trying to start anything, just, maybe, you want to be a little more predictable in the pack.
    Right. But grabbing a wheel if there's room is fair game.

    In one of my races over the weekend, I guy yelled 'Right Side.' He actually wanted me to move out of the way and let him by, which I wasn't about to do. "Right Side" isn't a command, and also there was no room. I'm on the wheel in front of me...and I should relinquish my position?

  4. #4
    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    yeah, you should be able to move around the pack without yelling or making people move aside for you. If someone leaves a gap, then that's their problem. Even a small gap like 3-4 feet is enough to squeeze into. You obviously can't move sideways into that gap or else you'll overlap both front & rear wheels. But what you can do is "back up" into that space. Start slowing down and when your rear-tyre has cleared the rear-tyre of the guy next to you, slowly move over. This will shove the guy behind backwards and he'll increase his gap. By the time your front-wheel is next to the rear-wheel of the guy next to you, your spokes should be rubbing on his derailleur. Then gradually drift backwards and sideways until you're directly behind him.

    Another good way to grab a wheel is to sit on the outside when going around a corner. When coming out of the corner, don't drift quite as wide as the guys ahead of you. They'll end up moving sideways directly in front of you. Hold that wheel and move up.

  5. #5
    Mitcholo CrimsonKarter21's Avatar
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    Yes, you can and should do that. If there is a gap, take it. Just remember;
    If you're going to go, go all the way
    If you're going to stay, stand your ground
    If you can't lead, let me by you
    If you can't follow, get out of the way, you're taking up space.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VosBike
    Hmmm...One of my friends (who won that race) said there were a lot of sketchy guys in his race. He mentioned a TCCC guy and one in plain yellow in specific. Not trying to start anything, just, maybe, you want to be a little more predictable in the pack.
    There are a few rookies who don't understand what's OK and what's not OK. Whoever it was doesn't realize that we're not going to wait for him to fill a gap. As an "out of retirement" racer (I got 4th), perhaps newer riders aren't used to seeing the moves of more experienced racers. No big deal, I just found it amusing

  7. #7
    . botto's Avatar
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    another fine lesson by DannoXYZ.

    if none of those work, just scream HEY! it tends to freak a few riders out enough that a gap will momentarily open up.

  8. #8
    Outgunned and outclassed
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    I wasn't trying to say don't fill gaps. I am often accused of diving into gaps that are way too small. I was just trying to show that there might be another side to the story.
    Patience - Consistency - Motivation

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  9. #9
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto
    another fine lesson by DannoXYZ.

    if none of those work, just scream HEY! it tends to freak a few riders out enough that a gap will momentarily open up.
    You did that too?

    In French, "He'!"

    Gotta have the accent.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
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  10. #10
    Tiocfáidh ár Lá jfmckenna's Avatar
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    I love when people yell, "on your left" in a corner because then I know where they are and proceed to squeeze them into the curb and back out behind me where they belong

  11. #11
    Red Headed Step Child
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    In some of the lower grade races around my area it is encouraged that riders make it clear when they're at intending to pass. I guess it helps keep some of the newer bodies from getting easily freaked out. However under no regular circumstances is it ok to overtake someone on the left going through a left hand corner. That kind of thing is what leads to flying bodies.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfmckenna
    I love when people yell, "on your left" in a corner because then I know where they are and proceed to squeeze them into the curb and back out behind me where they belong
    hehe. That is a good one.

    On a related note, I was in a race last year where someone rolls up to me and says "would you mind if I take the space in front of you?" I could hardly believe it. I mean what did they think I was going to do? Say sure go ahead you can have this wheel?? Needless to say, I proceeded to close the gap to the person in front of me.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
    yeah, you should be able to move around the pack without yelling or making people move aside for you. If someone leaves a gap, then that's their problem. Even a small gap like 3-4 feet is enough to squeeze into. You obviously can't move sideways into that gap or else you'll overlap both front & rear wheels. But what you can do is "back up" into that space. Start slowing down and when your rear-tyre has cleared the rear-tyre of the guy next to you, slowly move over. This will shove the guy behind backwards and he'll increase his gap. By the time your front-wheel is next to the rear-wheel of the guy next to you, your spokes should be rubbing on his derailleur. Then gradually drift backwards and sideways until you're directly behind him.

    Another good way to grab a wheel is to sit on the outside when going around a corner. When coming out of the corner, don't drift quite as wide as the guys ahead of you. They'll end up moving sideways directly in front of you. Hold that wheel and move up.

    What's a good counter-move if someone is doing this to you in a race?

  14. #14
    faster than your mom bodaciousguy's Avatar
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    I used to always do this in a lower category (backing up into a gap). I tried doing this in a 1/2 race to some guy and he pushed my butt to the right so I couldn't get in. I thought that was really impressive.

    On a similar note, I could make up positions in a crit on the final lap by simply taking a tighter turn than the guy in front of me. On the final lap of a 1/2 race, they take the last couple turns pretty sharp so its very hard to take the inside line.

  15. #15
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
    What's a good counter-move if someone is doing this to you in a race?
    First off, don't provide the gap to give the other rider the idea.

    Otherwise, do the reverse, on the other side. Just scoot up until your brake lever is pretty much pushing a butt cheek of the rider you're following. If everything is going right, you will be on the downwind side anyway, and can ride there pretty much indefinitely. The incoming rider will be out in the wind and unable to get into a good drafting position. If the the other rider still decides to come in, you can provide the same treatment, and quickly take the wheel back.

    That's one nice thing about riding in TX. There's ALWAYS a crosswind

  16. #16
    Race to train jrennie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfmckenna
    I love when people yell, "on your left" in a corner because then I know where they are and proceed to squeeze them into the curb and back out behind me where they belong
    I may have misinterpreted this but I hate people that feel the need to curb someone. Have a little respect for other riders. None of us are going pro(not that anyone would want to take the pay cut) and most of us have to go to work the next day. If the rider was to return the favor and as you drift into them just give you a little hip check sending you to the ground and most likley getting run over would that be OK?

  17. #17
    Race to train jrennie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
    On a related note, I was in a race last year where someone rolls up to me and says "would you mind if I take the space in front of you?" I could hardly believe it. I mean what did they think I was going to do? Say sure go ahead you can have this wheel?? Needless to say, I proceeded to close the gap to the person in front of me.
    Same as before show some class and let someone in. I'm not saying to do this on the final lap but if it isn't going to horribly change the race then be courteous, this sport is suppose to be fun not cut throat.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Mojo GoGo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrennie
    I may have misinterpreted this but I hate people that feel the need to curb someone. Have a little respect for other riders. None of us are going pro(not that anyone would want to take the pay cut) and most of us have to go to work the next day. If the rider was to return the favor and as you drift into them just give you a little hip check sending you to the ground and most likley getting run over would that be OK?
    The problem I've seen is in the lower Cats is everyone thinks they should be able to ride their own line going into a corner 2 or 3 wide. I've been on the inside (NOT diving a corner) and had riders curb me from the middle to outside of the lane when we've ridden side by side for 100+ meters. The sad part is that when you try to talk to someone afterwards about such behavior they often have no idea what your talking about because they don't know what "hold your line" even means.
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  19. #19
    Tiocfáidh ár Lá jfmckenna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrennie
    I may have misinterpreted this but I hate people that feel the need to curb someone. Have a little respect for other riders. None of us are going pro(not that anyone would want to take the pay cut) and most of us have to go to work the next day. If the rider was to return the favor and as you drift into them just give you a little hip check sending you to the ground and most likley getting run over would that be OK?
    I would never send anyone into the curb. People who yell, "on your left" going into a corner need to learn that you don't do that so basically you don't allow them by easing over and sending a clear signal. Believe me I know this is amateur bike racing and it's all in good fun and we all have to go home to our wives, kids, girl friends, dogs, cats what ever. But when you have a nice group of riders leading the field into a 30 MPH turn and the lead group lines up on the right line to take the corner nice smooth and fast and some joker thinks he is going to gain a spot by chopping into the flow by yelling, "on your left" then he simply must be schooled. In fact what I do by squeezing him off is far less dangerous than allowing him to chop into a corner

    But again I would absolutely never intentionally cause some one to crash out.

  20. #20
    cmh
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
    On a related note, I was in a race last year where someone rolls up to me and says "would you mind if I take the space in front of you?" I could hardly believe it. I mean what did they think I was going to do? Say sure go ahead you can have this wheel?? Needless to say, I proceeded to close the gap to the person in front of me.
    I let people in all the time in a race if it isn't going to change the race dynamic or my position. It is good to give a little to make friends in the peleton - people often give back when you need it. Of course, I am not going to intentionally let them in at a time when I am trying to move up or fight for position, like the closing laps of a race or if I intend to go for a prime.

  21. #21
    Race to train jrennie's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^ at least I'm not the only one

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo GoGo
    I've been on the inside (NOT diving a corner) and had riders curb me from the middle to outside of the lane when we've ridden side by side for 100+ meters.
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if you're truly side by side, you would have to let the other rider push you into the curb. As long as you're not overlapped with him ahead, you are in control.

    I like to be close to the outside rider before I bend in. That way, his line is defined by mine. If you're too far apart, you run the risk of finding yourselves trying to occupy the same piece of real estate at the same time at the apex or right after it as wildly divergent lines interesect.

    Just random observations from the Cat 5 cheap seats.

    EDIT: "from", not "for"
    Last edited by mfennell; 06-12-07 at 04:26 PM.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Mojo GoGo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfennell
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if you're truly side by side, you would have to let the other rider push you into the curb. As long as you're not overlapped with him ahead, you are in control.

    I like to be close to the outside rider before I bend in. That way, his line is defined by mine. If you're too far apart, you run the risk of finding yourselves trying to occupy the same piece of real estate at the same time at the apex or right after it as wildly divergent lines interesect.

    Just random observations for the Cat 5 cheap seats.
    No intent on a Cat 5 shot.

    My front wheel was at the other riders BB. The other rider knew I was there but chose to squeeze me out which not only cause a problem for me but also for the guy on his wheel. The really funny thing was that in his attempt to "shut me down" he scrubbed off more speed through the corner than if he had swept through with a less severe line.

    I guess my point was that riders should just typically follow the wheel ahead of them to keep things safe. Crits aren't going to be won on the second corner of the first lap and forcing people into the curb or multiple people trying to all use unique lines just leads to lots of braking (UGH!) or crashes.
    Ciao,
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  24. #24
    Super Moderator
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    If there is a line of riders moving up on your left much faster than you, unless you can jump really, really hard, if you move over the guy who left a gap will have to brake really hard. If you can get into that line without causing anyone in that line to brake, you're fine. I'd recommend looking first to let the others know what you're thinking.

    If your move causes someone to need to put their brakes on hard, you're riding poorly and unsafely.

    Think of a highway where one lane stopped due to traffic and the other lane is humming along at 60 mph. Is it okay to pull out from the stopped lane because "there's a gap?". Not unless you can get to 60 mph before cars behind you get to you. If the two lane speeds differ by 5 mph, it's a different story.

    If the line of riders is not moving very quickly, then scooting over perhaps 3-6" will let you put your "curb feelers" out. If the guy rushes by you, get back onto your line - he's looking to get by you and he's willing to burn the gas to do it. Let him burn the gas. If he slows, it's your spot, but you have to take it right away. Either way, you have given the other racer the option to pass or not. It's not a "force" thing.

    New Britain also has a lot of curves where the outside riders can squeeze the inside riders inadvertently. Respectful/polite/knowledgeable racers will hold a slightly wider line to avoid potential problems inside but you'll find racers squeezing the inside all the time - on the first long bend and the top of the hill. Look on the first lap of my cam clip - the light blue guy to my outside moved in a lot. He moved back out after so it wasn't necessarily intentional, just a mistake.

    In CT if you yell "On your left" it means move left 6" to see how serious that guy really is. In NY it means move over 2 feet to shut down the guy. In Michigan when I raced there a while back it meant move right a foot to give the guy more room (serious!).

    If you're shutting doors hard it's an indication that you're not following the guy in front of you in an ideal way. Any moves like that means you're making up for tactical mistakes and lack of fitness. It's better to make it so there's not even a thought of moving up there.

    cdr

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo GoGo
    My front wheel was at the other riders BB.
    Ah, that makes sense. He's in control if he wants to be a jerk.

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