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Old 06-30-07, 10:38 AM   #1
Rocket Richard
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Are there any other regions in the US that combine 1,2,3 races?

I'm down here in South Central US and due to low participation at local races mainly between La. and Miss. we must combine our cat 1,2, and 3's. I recenty upgraded to a 3 so I guess I will be a pack filler for a while. We still get scored seperately but to take home some gas money you have to beat the 1's and 2's. Wish me luck - I will need it. If I get spanked too bad - I guess I'll race Masters because my racing age is 35 - but I heard they are just as tough - just not as long. Later
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Old 06-30-07, 10:39 AM   #2
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the dc area has 1/2/3 races but they also have plenty of 3 races
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Old 06-30-07, 10:45 AM   #3
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I recently did a Cat2/3 race and took a top 5 placing...but we don't get separated out. So while I got two upgrade points, my second place showing in the 3s (I know who was what category) goes unnoticed. Lame.

But yes, other areas of the country do that if the races are small, or if they are RR's. For crits, this is extremely rare unless the promoter is having a BIG Pro/1 field, and then they'll make it P/1 and 2/3. But never P/1/2/3 in crits.
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Old 06-30-07, 10:56 AM   #4
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Many years ago, cat3's rarely had there own races in areas like yours with few riders. Now promoters do their best to have seperate events for everyone possible, especially here in Florida

Too bad for you, but stick it out and see what comes of it. Maybe with all the P123 races, you'll find that 3 only races feel easy and start racking up results.
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Old 06-30-07, 11:05 AM   #5
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Often times it's not just the number of racers but how long the promoters can keep the roads closed that determines that.
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Old 06-30-07, 11:05 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YMCA
Many years ago, cat3's rarely had there own races in areas like yours with few riders. Now promoters do their best to have seperate events for everyone possible, especially here in Florida

Too bad for you, but stick it out and see what comes of it. Maybe with all the P123 races, you'll find that 3 only races feel easy and start racking up results.
@YMCA- Perhaps this is true, perhaps it isn't, but I've been told that Cat3 now is what Cat2 was like 15-ish years ago. This is from a couple of masters guys who race the P/1/2 fields and the 35/40+ races. Basically, the overall level of racing in the US is on the rise and the depth is increasing accordingly? I'd like to hear your opinions on this. Thanks!
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Old 06-30-07, 11:06 AM   #7
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In northern california you see a lot of P/1/2 races for the men. I think I've also seen 1/2/3 categories for the masters 35+ or 45+ where they split the 4/5's into a different pack.

P1/2/3 is very common in the women's fields. Sometimes they pick separately and sometimes they don't. It's common to see this if they want to offer a W4 field as well. Although occasionally you will see a P1/2/3, W3 and W4 but not that often.
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Old 06-30-07, 11:58 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
In northern california you see a lot of P/1/2 races for the men. I think I've also seen 1/2/3 categories for the masters 35+ or 45+ where they split the 4/5's into a different pack.

P1/2/3 is very common in the women's fields. Sometimes they pick separately and sometimes they don't. It's common to see this if they want to offer a W4 field as well. Although occasionally you will see a P1/2/3, W3 and W4 but not that often.
Wow, the women down here get the shaft (no pun intended) but we just have a general "womens" race. If you are new to the sport in the womens field, you could be lining up with pros for your fist race! Crazy huh.
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Old 06-30-07, 12:55 PM   #9
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In Ohio, most events I'm in have a 1/2/3 race AND either a separate 3 race or a 3/4 race. We don't have very many 1's or 2's it seems to fill out a field. Even with the inclusion of cat 3's, the "1/2/3" race is usually the smallest of all men's fields by far.
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Old 06-30-07, 01:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Richard
Wow, the women down here get the shaft (no pun intended) but we just have a general "womens" race. If you are new to the sport in the womens field, you could be lining up with pros for your fist race! Crazy huh.

They do that in a couple of races out here. P/1/2/3/4 !!! It's nuts. Sometimes they don't ever pick separately.


It's nice when they do because people can feel like they're getting something for their $30 or whatever.
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Old 06-30-07, 01:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
They do that in a couple of races out here. P/1/2/3/4 !!! It's nuts. Sometimes they don't ever pick separately.


It's nice when they do because people can feel like they're getting something for their $30 or whatever.

Never a problem here in Florida for the W4's. They almost always get their own race, even if it's only 5 of them on the line. For sure, they always get their own prizes.
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Old 06-30-07, 01:35 PM   #12
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I did an early season crit here in Sacramento (Land Park) and lined up for what I thought was the Masters 35+ 4/5 only to find out that it was open to all categories. I noticed a bear flag champ jersey and a handful of stars-and-stripes sleeve cuffs.

It was a brisk ride.
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Old 06-30-07, 04:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
@YMCA- Perhaps this is true, perhaps it isn't, but I've been told that Cat3 now is what Cat2 was like 15-ish years ago. This is from a couple of masters guys who race the P/1/2 fields and the 35/40+ races. Basically, the overall level of racing in the US is on the rise and the depth is increasing accordingly? I'd like to hear your opinions on this. Thanks!

You could be right about cat3's not being as strong as they used to be. Probably something do with the fact they rarely have to do 123's anymore and that racers now have more balanced lives than they used to. 15-20 years ago or more, you had a lot of 3's that trained 300+ mile weeks regularly. Now-a-days it seems most guys do just what they need to, in order to keep racing decently and keep up with other responsibilities better.

Bike racers used to be a smaller community and to succeed, or have anyone pay attention to you, riders had prove themselves constantly. Training and racing has gotten a lot softer. Almost to the point of yuppie triathletes. Could just be the hardened sportsman in me talking though.
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Old 06-30-07, 05:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
I recently did a Cat2/3 race and took a top 5 placing...but we don't get separated out. So while I got two upgrade points, my second place showing in the 3s (I know who was what category) goes unnoticed. Lame.

But yes, other areas of the country do that if the races are small, or if they are RR's. For crits, this is extremely rare unless the promoter is having a BIG Pro/1 field, and then they'll make it P/1 and 2/3. But never P/1/2/3 in crits.
It happens regularly in SoCal in criteriums. Usually the promoter will have a cat. 3 and a Pro/1-2-3. The promoter makes out because he charges the 3s an extra $10 to do a 2nd race and then sells more entries since a Pro/1-2 field wouldn't have filled. At one of the crits. last weekend there wasn't a cat. 3 and it was combined Pro/1-2-3. The 3s usually have the option but didn't that day. Looking at the results the first name that could be a 3 was 24th place. Thats the first name I don't recognize as someone that I regularly race against or my own. The race paid 20 deep.
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Old 06-30-07, 05:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YMCA
Bike racers used to be a smaller community and to succeed, or have anyone pay attention to you, riders had prove themselves constantly. Training and racing has gotten a lot softer. Almost to the point of yuppie triathletes. Could just be the hardened sportsman in me talking though.
You could be onto something. I don't think that NRC level racing is easier but there seems to be a bigger gap between local racing (at least in SoCal) and national level racing. I had similar conversations a few months ago with Thurlow Rogers and Steve Hegg. Both of these guys used to dominate local races around here and tear it up in the NRC. At 47, Thurlow is still a threat at local races and after one a couple months ago, we were talking about how hard the NRC race had been the week before. I used to chase Steve around when he was still racing. At a party after one of the stages of Redlands, he was asking me if racing is easier now. I told him that it seemed harder to go from doing local races and throwing in a few NRC races. You have to be consisitently racing NRC races if you want to be able to do anything.
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Old 06-30-07, 05:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YMCA
You could be right about cat3's not being as strong as they used to be. Probably something do with the fact they rarely have to do 123's anymore and that racers now have more balanced lives than they used to. 15-20 years ago or more, you had a lot of 3's that trained 300+ mile weeks regularly. Now-a-days it seems most guys do just what they need to, in order to keep racing decently and keep up with other responsibilities better.

Bike racers used to be a smaller community and to succeed, or have anyone pay attention to you, riders had prove themselves constantly. Training and racing has gotten a lot softer. Almost to the point of yuppie triathletes. Could just be the hardened sportsman in me talking though.
I was actually saying that my friend told me that the level of the 3's has RISEN, not fallen. The three's used to get absolutely shelled when they came up to the 1/2's, now they are doing better on average, according to him.

I don't plan on being a 3 for any more than the rest of this summer, so I'm hoping that he's right. I blew plenty of 2's out of the water in my one and only race against them, and would like to see that continue.
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Old 06-30-07, 06:18 PM   #17
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Arizona has a couple. Imo, it great experience for the 3's and I'm grateful to get the chance to start with the P1,2's...Ymmv as usual.
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Old 06-30-07, 07:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
I was actually saying that my friend told me that the level of the 3's has RISEN, not fallen. The three's used to get absolutely shelled when they came up to the 1/2's, now they are doing better on average, according to him.

I don't plan on being a 3 for any more than the rest of this summer, so I'm hoping that he's right. I blew plenty of 2's out of the water in my one and only race against them, and would like to see that continue.

Oops, I misread your original statement.
If you are going to 2, be one of the strongest (not neccessarily fastest) riders in the 3's.
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Old 06-30-07, 11:03 PM   #19
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Oregon
Women usually have a 1/2/3 field with a separate 4's.
Men pretty much are P/1/2, separate 3's then 4/5's.
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Old 07-01-07, 09:20 AM   #20
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Northeast (NY NJ Metro area) it`s not uncommon to have p 1 2 3 and 3 4 races.
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Old 07-05-07, 07:55 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
But yes, other areas of the country do that if the races are small, or if they are RR's. For crits, this is extremely rare unless the promoter is having a BIG Pro/1 field, and then they'll make it P/1 and 2/3. But never P/1/2/3 in crits.
Incorrect (although almost always true): see the races I'm doing weekend after this coming one. Tour de Port and Tour de Peake run a cat 5 and a cat 4 field but combine the P/1/2/3 into one 80-minute sufferfest.

Wish me luck...

[Edit:] I was a few days late replying and I see that it's been covered by other posters.

Last edited by truckin; 07-05-07 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 07-05-07, 07:59 AM   #22
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Here in Montana we almost NEVER separate the p/1/2/3.

Don't think for one second that we are slower because of smaller fields. We had two guys go to Mt. Hood and score top 10's in the cat 3 GC.
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Old 07-05-07, 08:01 AM   #23
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Northeast (NY NJ Metro area) it`s not uncommon to have p 1 2 3 and 3 4 races.
And 4/5's
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Old 07-05-07, 08:17 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Cypress
Here in Montana we almost NEVER separate the p/1/2/3.

Don't think for one second that we are slower because of smaller fields. We had two guys go to Mt. Hood and score top 10's in the cat 3 GC.
Only because I flatted

At our recent crit championship the Cat 3 field turned laps identical to what a Pro 1/2 break was doing while putting time on the field. Depends on the race, time of year, and field. Same can be said about the sketchiness of the racing. Lately some of the 3's around here ride like idiots.
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Old 07-05-07, 09:10 AM   #25
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Here in Montana we almost NEVER separate the p/1/2/3.

Don't think for one second that we are slower because of smaller fields. We had two guys go to Mt. Hood and score top 10's in the cat 3 GC.
I often think smaller fields = harder race. There's nowhere to hide.
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