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Old 07-21-03, 02:19 PM   #1
don d.
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Riding on the Wings of Angels detailed the account of Armstrong's tumble today:

"...The excitement generated by the race's arrival prompted a child, watching from the side of the road, to throw his arms forward. A bag he carried caught the right of Armstrong's bars and the rider in the Yellow Jersey went tumbling down. ...Riding on the wings of angels as Armstrong so clearly does, He wasn't hurt in the fall."

Later when asked about what happened, Armstrong said that he was partly responsible for riding so close to the spectators.

Contrast this with the 1992 TDF when Andy Hampsten made his epic ride up Le Alpe d'Huez to solo victory, and a young boy caught up in the excitment of the race tried to reach out to touch Andy on the rear as he went by and Andy punched out at the child, knocking him away.

We have been treated to a host of scenes of true sportsmanship by riders that display true strength and breadth of character in this Tour. I've watched a bunch of Tours, seen videos of races over and over, and can't remember anything like this Tour. Hamilton's courage, Ullrich's sportsmanship, and the very large personality and heart of this Lance Armstrong.

I really think this should be called the Tour that had no losers.
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Old 07-21-03, 02:27 PM   #2
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I like the thought, but I don't think Joseba Beloki would agree. Without a doubt this tour is huge though.
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Old 07-21-03, 03:01 PM   #3
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nice words Don.d
Definately the best tour in many many years and without the politics too.
even '89 was tainted with the usual Fignon spoilt brat persona and 85 and 86 with the Badgers stupid mind games. If ever there was a piece of excretum that mounted a bike it was Hinault
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Old 07-21-03, 03:05 PM   #4
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Originally posted by TimB
. . . 85 and 86 with the Badgers stupid mind games. If ever there was a piece of excretum that mounted a bike it was Hinault
At last something that TimB and I can agree on 100%.
Hinault while he may have been a great rider was a complete
@ss whole. If it wasn't for Greg being pulled back
he never would have gotten win number 5,
even if he did ride a pimpy bike

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Old 07-21-03, 03:35 PM   #5
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Pimpy bike ??!!
That cluncker.
Had the brake cable coming out of the top of the body,
thin walled STEEL tubing lugged and brazed.....
and did'nt even have indexed shifting, Please Pimpy bike......
Hold on he did have clipless pedals did'nt he!!

Never liked Hinault, never will. He still suffers from his delusions of grandeur that he was stronger thean LeMond in 85 & 86.
But he needed team orders to win and n 86 he ignored them.
The man has no honour. He's a
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Old 07-21-03, 06:07 PM   #6
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Sad to see this post sidetracked after such a colossal day in the mountains. We are involved in the King of Sports, and riders of the stature of Armstrong, Ullrich and Hamilton make us proud not only with their exploits but their demeanour.....

I'm sorry, I can't resist it.....

Saintly Greg Lemond is the guy who tried to belittle Armstrong's achievements and call him a drug cheat, with as little evidence as the French press corps. In 1985, he was tempted to betray his leader, who was wearing the Maillot Jaune and riding with a broken nose, by the tactically astute Stephen Roche. When called to account for this, he blubbed, to anyone who would listen. Hinault's non-plussed response at the time was entirely appropriate- and his revenge the following year was milder than Lemond deserved.

Hinault's mind games? They are all doing it, the successful ones. What do you think Riis says to Hamilton? What did Roche say to Lemond? Lance Armstrong? He's a master.

The disloyalty and lack of respect for tradition displayed by Lemond, is in marked contrast to the behaviour of today's protagonists.

By the way Tim,

as I mentioned to you previously, I rode some of those 'Pimpy' bikes in '85- and they were often Noodly (Vitus) and fragile, or just fragile (Peugeot Carbon Fibre). The 753 stuff a lot of teams used then was a reasonable compromise between durability and light weight. What would you have used that was better back then? What were you riding yourself?

Hinault may not be a generous spirit, to put it mildly, but he was a great champion, and not just in the Tour. Fignon's '84 exhibition was the greatest single tour domination of the post-Merckx era, IMO (but I'll listen to dissenters about that one).
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Old 07-22-03, 03:44 AM   #7
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in 85 i was riding a BMX and looking forward to high school girls :;-):

That i another perspective on Hinault.

LeMond lashing out at Armstrong had nothing to do with calling him a cheat. It had to do with Armstrong's refusal to testify against Dr. Ferrari on the Festina doping scandal.

As for LeMond breaking the honour code, in the 85 tour LaVie Claire had 2 leaders, LeMOnd and Hinault and as far as the team was concerned the strongest would be supported and allowedto go for the win.
To LeMond, Koechli calling him back and telling him to back off was the team deciding who would win.

If you take into account that Bernard Tapie had little business interest in the United States, it would help his ambitions i no way to allow LeMond to win. So the race was given to Hinault who gladly lapped up his gift and rubbed it in LeMonds face.
It was Hinault who publicly stated he would help LeMond in the 86 tour and when the time came the tempatiuon of winning a 6th was just to great. Also Tapies business ambitions were starting to expand and he started entertaining the idea that an American winning would be a good one.

In both years LemOnd was the stronger of the two. Unfortuantely he was constrained by his bosses business needs.
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Old 07-22-03, 02:47 PM   #8
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No-one believed that tale about dual leadership except Greg. To be generous, he was a bit young...............

Hinault had won the Giro. At the Tour, he took 21" from Greg in the prologue, 2'34" in the first ITT and 1'23" in the second. When he allowed Greg to mark a break on stage 14 (and work with it)he had a 5' lead. I think that was enough for a Frenchman to consider himself team leader, going for his fifth Tour win, don't you? -especially given the conventions of the time, about attacking an injured yellow jersey and the rigid team tactics (despite the team's professed new style of organisation) prevalent across road racing.

Imagine if Heras rode for himself in a Pyrenean break, against Armstrong's interests. He has the pedigree, as a Vuelta winner, to harbour personal ambitions. Even in the modern era, a Pantani can win the Tour. So if Heras cracked Armstrong and was supported to Paris by vengeful Frenchmen and loyal Spaniards, what then? Either you approve of team orders or you don't, you can't pick and choose. Remember LVC won the TTT by a minute in '85 as well- Lemond could have been sole leader in a number of other squadra.......

Controversies are not unusual when the stakes are high. Remember the Spanish conspiracy which took the '85 Vuelta from robert Millar (the real Millar) and handed it to Pedro Delgado? Or Stephen Roche dividing his Carrera team at the '87 Giro and relying on his "english-speaking" mates, amongst others, to protect him from the fulminating Tifosi?

In the case of Lemond, his superior strength is conjecture kept alive by his whining. As to his remarks on Armstrong, you must have read different accounts to me. Lemond sees Lance's support of Ferrari as proof positive of his acceptance of the doctor's discredited methods:guilt by association. Your distinction seems a little fine, to me.

-that wasn't a steel BMX, was it?
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Old 07-22-03, 04:03 PM   #9
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:irritated grrrr yes it was a STEEL bmx, a CAPE DRAGON or something. Nice and light very strong and quick. Paid for with newspaper delivery money and a little assistance from dad.

Yes Hinault may have been 5min up on LeMond but the tide was turning.
Yes Hinault was injured and was having trouble breathing to his max ability, but surely then the team should have been rallied around the contender who was stronger at that time in the race?
Perhaps it's best to just consign history to the text books and not argue over what might have been. History shows Hinault won it, although I believe he was not the stronger of the two from the 2nd week onwards.
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Old 09-24-04, 10:23 PM   #10
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Outside of the cannibal, hinault was the best. Yes, theres Lance-6 tour wins, but does he race a full calender year?
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Old 09-26-04, 10:51 AM   #11
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I think the argument can be made that Coppi was superior to Hinault..

but why are you bringing this thread to the top? It's over a year old.
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