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View Poll Results: Would you have sat up?
Sod him! I'd have legged it. 3 3.90%
I'm a gent and so would sit up. 41 53.25%
No gent, but want to win on equal terms. 33 42.86%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-23-03, 01:21 AM   #1
chewa
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Would you have stopped?

Ok we all know Ullrich did the gentlemanly thing and sat up when Armstrong crashed.

Also we know that Armstrong did that very same thing 2 years ago.

However, the difference is that the Tour was pretty well finished for Ullrich 2 years ago and not hanging on a 15 second gap.

Would you have sat up or used the advantage to secure the lead.
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Old 07-23-03, 01:45 AM   #2
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I like to think of myself as a gentleman and bike racing being a gentleman's sport has some rules of decorum that state you don't attack someone who's down due to an unfortunate accident. To do so would result in a loss of honour and respect from the peloton and one's self. I think Ullrich knew Armstrong could recover from the crash and gave him the chance to do so. He basically called "fight's off" until the situation could be reset to more even terms. Afterall, this is still a sport and proper sportsmanship is to be expected.
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Old 07-23-03, 01:57 AM   #3
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I would like to think that I would act in a gentlemanly manner too, but I think various things would have been going through my mind. I hope I would make the right decision (whaterver that is!)
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Old 07-23-03, 02:33 AM   #4
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been there done that. it's the right thing to do.
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Old 07-23-03, 06:13 AM   #5
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I'd like to believe I'd have done the right thing. But in the heat of battle, with the testosterone and andrenaline flowing, I dunno.

I don't think it would have made much diference to the outcome. The real issue in my mind is @#$%!* crowd control. Geez, I get p!ssed looking at the spectators and freakin' motorcycles crowding the cyclists. What about the time Merckx got punched in the kidney?
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Old 07-23-03, 06:19 AM   #6
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I believe that Lance (and most, if not all other contenders) would have also waited in this situation. It's a question of honor and sportsmanship. IMHO, these are values that have virtually evaporated in American sports - we want to win @ any price. I can certainly appreciate why those of us from the States are having a problem understanding this.
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Old 07-23-03, 06:50 AM   #7
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that's tough. with tyler hamilton yelling to slow up, it wouldn't have looked good for Jan to motor on without the others at that point. If Lance pulls up lame or really has pedal problems that prevented him from returning then Jan looks like a d!ck.
Lance would have caught him anyway and it would have created hostility that would result in the same result in the coming days (IMHO)

in short.....Jan did right here.
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Old 07-23-03, 07:24 AM   #8
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Interesting that some of you have commented on what Ullrich did. I asked what would you do, and given other posts on this forum I had expected a lot of the American memebrs to option the sod it I would leg it choice.
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Old 07-23-03, 07:33 AM   #9
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If you are going to be the one to beat Armstrong, you don’t want to have an asterisk next to your win. Gotta beat him on even terms.
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Old 07-23-03, 07:35 AM   #10
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yes, because we americans are all uncouth and barbaric and everything...

jan absolutely did the right thing for any number of reasons. even if you've no sportsmanship in your veins, imagine the disclaimers that would've gone up had jan won the tour because he attacked a fallen man. until the end of time, that's what people would remember, not that he beat lance one-on-one. he would've completely lost the respect of the peloton, the media, the fans, and le patron himself.
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Old 07-23-03, 07:36 AM   #11
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We can talk about honor and sportsmanship all day long, but let's look at it from another angle as well. That of ego. These guys all have pretty big ego's, and to win the race by taking advantage of something like that will not be a good thing. Everybody will say that you won the race on a fluke, etc. Even if JU only pulled 30 seconds on LA by taking advantage of it and put 10 minutes on him in the TT, he'd still be remembered for that one piece of poor sportsmanship.

Remember 1999 when Lance won his first TdF, and everybody said "Oh, well of course he won, there was no compeition", nobody wants to hear that, Lance did it for 3 (almost 4) more years after that. But that's not how you want your tour win to go down.

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Old 07-23-03, 07:47 AM   #12
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Well I'm no 'gent' but I would have waited--while cursing under my breath.

A friend of mine mentioned that this is kind of a ridiculous gesture. If you drive off the road like Jan did a few years ago or snag a musette by riding to close to the crowd like Lance your skills are wavering--you're not as good as your opponent in that instance. Therefore the person in the best form and most skills at that point should win (not stop).

Interesting point, don't know if I agree, but interesting.
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Old 07-23-03, 08:07 AM   #13
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Did anyone see the interview with Tyler? He's the one who suggested they wait for Lance, not Jan. He said it's an unwritten rule in the tour to wait for the yellow jersey in a situation like that <shrug> I think that it boils down to (as Andrew indicated) they want to beat the yellow jersey "mano-a-mano" and not due to an advantage gained by his misfortunes.
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Old 07-23-03, 08:07 AM   #14
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Yeah, but that places a lot more emphasis on luck. While I guess it’s fair, wouldn’t you hate to loose the tour because of something as simple as a puncture? At least this way, the strongest man wins.
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Old 07-23-03, 09:57 AM   #15
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This is the first time that I have watched the tour. When Lance fell, I thought that it was the end for him. I had no idea that the other riders would wait. I was amazed, and I learned something very important. Ulrich, Tyler, and the others are a very class act. I was astounded. I did not know that cyclists were like that at all. Before I saw this, I would have pedaled off, now that I have learned that the sport has some decent and good values, I would have definately waited.

What a great bunch of professional athletes. In the end it may not have even matterd, I don't know, but if Ullrich wins, he will not have done it in an unsportsmanlike manner. From this beginner -
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Old 07-23-03, 10:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by chewa
I had expected a lot of the American memebrs to option the sod it I would leg it choice.
Right now, a couple of E-E riders are at the top of my low-life list (and neither is American, thank you). They are climbers, no? I guess not. I hope they're ground to dust in the remaining stages.

When it comes to attacking crashed/urinating/eating leaders, it surprises me how many people have to have the "why" explained to them. And even at that, don't quite seem to get it. It was the same when Lance waited for Jan.

Last edited by roadbuzz; 07-23-03 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 07-23-03, 10:17 AM   #17
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I wonder why Lance did not even hesitate to slow down when Beloki crashed last week. Did it look so bad that he knew JB was not getting up again or did he just waive the "wait rule" because his competition, namely Vino, was whizzing on without him around the next corner. Nobody other than JB's team stopped to wait for him.

Seems the understandings are a little vague!
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Old 07-23-03, 10:25 AM   #18
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I would have slowed up. I'm not going to win by taking advantage of a rider fallen because of a spectator.

It would be different if it was something like... racing down a descent. If I went over the top of a mountain with a minute advantage over a rival, and I stormed down the mountain... if the guy behind me crashed, well then that is too bad. THAT is racing. His fault for making the mistake.

But if I wasn't racing to gain time on him right before it happened, then I wouldnt use the misfortune to gain time on him.
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Old 07-23-03, 10:59 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Crunch
I wonder why Lance did not even hesitate to slow down when Beloki crashed last week. Did it look so bad that he knew JB was not getting up again or did he just waive the "wait rule" because his competition, namely Vino, was whizzing on without him around the next corner. Nobody other than JB's team stopped to wait for him.

Seems the understandings are a little vague!
It was the situation:

- Vino was out front and not slowing, forcing their hand

- The stage was almost done in terms of time (downhill & flats)

- The group did slow a bit @ first, then moved on after (I'm guessing) they got radio reports that poor Beloki wasn't getting up

- Beloki wasn't in yellow (he was VERY close though)
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Old 07-23-03, 11:13 AM   #20
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I would wait, plain and simple.

As for Jan, his comments to the press were:
Quote:
It was correct that when Armstrong crashed, I didn't attack, because cycling is a fair-play sport
and later:
Quote:
I have never in my life attacked someone who had crashed. That's not the way I race. . .
Jan was pulling back after lance crashed it was Basso,
Zubeldia etc. that Tyler was admonishing to wait. He
did NOT have to tell Jan.

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Old 07-23-03, 11:27 AM   #21
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For about 2 seconds my brain would have screamed at me to go go go but I would have waited. If I were in the position of winning the TdF I wouldn't want all of the insinuations thatt would have come if I had, successfully, attacked.

As an analogy when baseball put an asterik after Roger Maris' name for 61 homeruns it ruined the accomplishment for him and that wasn't even a fair action by baseball IMO. The baggage that would've gone with a victory gained by attacking a fallen rider would be as bad and justified.

So I chose #3.
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Old 07-23-03, 11:31 AM   #22
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I wondered abit about Beloki and LA too but the attack was already well initiated by Vino and the counter by LA and Beloki was also in progress when the crash happened too. If LA hadn't been forced off the road I do think he should have, and probably would have, slowed and looked back. Vino's attack was a bigger threat to Beloki's spot than Lance's.
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Old 07-23-03, 01:22 PM   #23
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i don't think it has much to do with being a "gentleman."
if you win by kicking your opponent while he's down, your victory will never be approved by your colleagues and fans. you will never enjoy it and it will forever taint your reputation. ullrich simply had no other option but wait for lance.
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Old 07-23-03, 01:33 PM   #24
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shrimpx - I disagree.

I think it has everything to do with being a "gentleman". A lot of sports I play competitively have an aspect of "gentlemanly" conduct associated with them (if you can call it such a thing). When it's badminton, the early rounds don't involve linesmen because we assume players are honourable and respectful enough of the game to call shots as they truly see them. When it's curling during the winter, there are no referees to call rocks or to scream foul if we cross the hog line - if we break a rule, we have the honour of calling the error ourselves. The same goes with cycling It's played with respect and honour and I think there's a general consensus among everyone that pedaling off while someone is down is dishonourable (although I agree with someone else's earlier comments...I'm no fan of Euskatel Euskadi)
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Old 07-23-03, 03:03 PM   #25
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sports are about having a good time, and winning not in that order. I would have used that chance to gain a lead, its not like the guy made lance fall. Maybe i'm just too young to understand the gentleman's sport thing.
in soccer if the last defender slips and falls I don't think Totti is going to be waiting for the guy to get up before blasting one by the keeper.
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