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Old 08-08-07, 01:05 PM   #1
ratebeer
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More TT: Lowering your front end

Is there anything I can use besides the Look Ergostem (heavy, expensive) to get my front end just a hair lower?

My head tube angle is the common 73 degrees. I'm looking to get maybe a -5 overall (-22). It doesn't look like the Ritchey or Oval Concepts adjustable stems will do this for me.
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Old 08-08-07, 01:10 PM   #2
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18 or 20 front tire?

Is there a spacer or anything under your forearm pads that you could remove?

Could you move your saddle forward and raise it accordingly?

Can you pull your elbows back to crunch up a bit and lower your shoulders that way?

I know UT_Dude recently ordered a drop stem...
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Old 08-08-07, 01:23 PM   #3
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Dimension makes a stem that's -35 degrees -- apparently because of stack heights and where the bend is, it gets you lower than the two adjustable stems.
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Old 08-08-07, 01:34 PM   #4
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Oh crap, yeah, I can probably get a degree or so with a smaller front tire. I run 23s and have since I started riding at 225 pounds. I was noticing I can't be running 23s in tubular. Is it safe for me to get down to 20s? How many degrees do you think that would change things?

I was just professionally fitted so I don't want to tweak too much with the saddle. The Dimension stem looks great but would give me too much drop for a small tweak (-18 degrees).

The aerobar thing looks like it's work! ROCK!! I just smaller bolts or bolt cutters.

THANKS!
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Old 08-08-07, 02:02 PM   #5
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Deda makes a version of the Newton stem call the pista for track use, and it comes in 67/-23, so that would get you 6 below horizontal. No idea on how much it cost but probably about the same as a regular Newton.
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Old 08-08-07, 02:04 PM   #6
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20's are a good idea if you have dedicated TT wheels -- less contact area = less rolling resistance.

That's way oversimplified, but it gives you someplace to start.
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Old 08-08-07, 02:19 PM   #7
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20's are a good idea if you have dedicated TT wheels -- less contact area = less rolling resistance.

That's way oversimplified, but it gives you someplace to start.
They have more rolling resistance (deflection) but less aero drag but yeah maybe some advantage? Can I still do a tire this narrow at 187 pounds or so?
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Old 08-08-07, 02:38 PM   #8
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Yeah, a 20 would be fine for the front at your weight. Back in the 80s a lot of people were riding on 20s to save weight I think.

So there is a way to lower your pads then?
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Old 08-08-07, 03:56 PM   #9
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Here, you can use Bjorn Andersson, as an example.











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Old 08-09-07, 12:36 AM   #10
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Yeah, a 20 would be fine for the front at your weight. Back in the 80s a lot of people were riding on 20s to save weight I think.

So there is a way to lower your pads then?
yeppers. I had some parts in there that could be taken out. I don't think they're "spacers" exactly but I was able to get them out of there and is lowered my elbows some more.

I've learned about some new hazards of getting low -- one is that I puke and half-puke easier. The other is that you can put pressure on your vagus nerve, your head loses blood pressure, and you pass out.
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Old 08-09-07, 01:26 AM   #11
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whats considered a steep angle stem? I'm also looking to lower my front end, but on my road bike. I'm not sure what angle my stem is right now, but its not that steep
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Old 08-09-07, 02:03 AM   #12
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650c front wheel
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Old 08-09-07, 06:24 AM   #13
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I've learned about some new hazards of getting low -- one is that I puke and half-puke easier. The other is that you can put pressure on your vagus nerve, your head loses blood pressure, and you pass out.
You're not drinking beer near this are you?

...might be time for a video position review
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Old 08-09-07, 12:20 PM   #14
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You're not drinking beer near this are you?

...might be time for a video position review
Beer, what's that? No I save the world class stuff for the weekends. I unfortunately drink loads of non-alcoholic beer during the week. (Less than 50 calories and maltose is glucose + glucose. Plus a little bonus B vitamins. Bits of protein too. Beer is an excellent beverage!)

I hadn't heard of the vagus nerve thing but a local nurse (who's an amazing TTer -- 40km in 50 minutes!) mentioned it after a rider suffered a couple broken ribs after endo'ing off our course. It's serious stuff.

As for hurling, I pretty much had this dialed in with my four minute intervals. But I was on a tempo-plus ride yesterday and just got a little excited by a tail wind when all of a sudden holding my cadence was easier than holding my in-flight "meal". I gave that a go a few times and then just said the heck with it, I'll drop it off here. Apple bars plus Hammer gel berry is not so bad as far as vomitus goes.

I plan on awarding myself with an Anaerobia jersey if I can hurl after or during a race. I think I need cooler conditions.
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Old 08-09-07, 12:36 PM   #15
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Here, you can use Bjorn Andersson, as an example.

That's the Ergostem. I used to love this bike/position but now I think it's not very good. Low =! aerodynamic. He drops his bars low and then uses this to get as high as he can with his shoulders. He is an amazing rider/tri guy. The Ergostem itself is almost an entire POUND.

Kind of funny... Andersson has F-19 aero bars and still has the "spacers" in. (And spacers atop his stem.) He also puts his water bottle off the back?! That's a bad source of drag. I expect that by now he's got the Rudy aero helmet (best ventilated of aero helmets)?
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Old 08-09-07, 12:54 PM   #16
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Goes to show it's about the rider, not the equipment.
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Old 08-09-07, 01:00 PM   #17
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Goes to show it's about the rider, not the equipment.
Uh, riiiiiiiiight...
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Old 08-09-07, 01:23 PM   #18
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Goes to show it's about the rider, not the equipment.
UHHHH when Bjorn first showed up to triathlon competitions, nobody, I mean nobody knew who he was, and everybody was laughing at his set-up. When the triathlon started he blew away the competition on the bike course with all of the top ten tri-athletes in the world trying to catch him.
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Old 08-09-07, 03:55 PM   #19
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You're not drinking beer near this are you?

...might be time for a video position review
I wussed out of last week's TT. I can't seem to shake this soreness even though I've gone from 6 hours of sleep on average to 8+. Last night I was out for 10 hours straight which is pretty much unheard of. The only thing I can compare this to is after I was hit by a car.

As I look at my training stress scores, there's not much to see. I think there's a huge difference for me in terms of recovery between all out efforts that are very hard and the more insane, yank-my-legs-and-hips-apart-while-they're-exhausted-screaming-"STOP NOW!!" types of races.



This is premodification. After I saw this pic, I moved the seat way forward and up a little and I dropped the front a half inch after your suggestion yesterday. I like to try to get my elbows below the pads by tipping my wrists up.
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Old 08-09-07, 04:35 PM   #20
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I like to try to get my elbows below the pads by tipping my wrists up.
This could get uncomfortable.
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Old 08-09-07, 05:13 PM   #21
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This could get uncomfortable.
Uncomfortable is fine. As long as the power's up and I can still feel my legs and junk, I'm all right. My hands are shot from computers anyway.

I'm a bit more concerned about hurling on my bike and being out of water to quickly rinse it off. My stomach is about even with or maybe a little higher than my mouth now. I also don't want to "drive the GRX" (Speed Racer) -- I can see my Lance-hunch might add vagus nerve pressure.
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Old 08-09-07, 06:54 PM   #22
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Yeah, if you're more forward now, that should help. Your hips look a little closed off to me above. Of course that will be offset by your lower shoulders. You did raise the saddle a bit as you came forward, right? That helps open the hips up too.

Give it a whirl and see how it feels.
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Old 08-09-07, 07:13 PM   #23
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That's the Ergostem. I used to love this bike/position but now I think it's not very good. Low =! aerodynamic. He drops his bars low and then uses this to get as high as he can with his shoulders. He is an amazing rider/tri guy. The Ergostem itself is almost an entire POUND.

Kind of funny... Andersson has F-19 aero bars and still has the "spacers" in. (And spacers atop his stem.) He also puts his water bottle off the back?! That's a bad source of drag. I expect that by now he's got the Rudy aero helmet (best ventilated of aero helmets)?

Actuatly thats not an ergo stem, I think its an ITM adjustable, actuatly if you pay attention it says ITM on it.

Also his bottles are still in his draft just as much as anyone else with saddle mounted bottles.

Also low is = to aerodynamic, to a certain extent and yes his position falls into the aerodynamic category. His problem is that the angle of his hips are too acute. Sure he can probably put out 350watts for an hour but if he had to put out 800watts for 2 minutes hed have a lot of trouble really cranking on the pedals since he cant use his glutes efficently.
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Old 08-09-07, 07:16 PM   #24
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Uncomfortable is fine. As long as the power's up and I can still feel my legs and junk, I'm all right. My hands are shot from computers anyway.

I'm a bit more concerned about hurling on my bike and being out of water to quickly rinse it off. My stomach is about even with or maybe a little higher than my mouth now. I also don't want to "drive the GRX" (Speed Racer) -- I can see my Lance-hunch might add vagus nerve pressure.
Also you have a hump because the bike is too short for you.
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Old 08-09-07, 07:49 PM   #25
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Also you have a hump because the bike is too short for you.
Thanks for the tip!

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