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Old 08-14-07, 07:44 PM   #1
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Tonight, Pcad was the TT CF Bullet of High Speed Death

Well, not really, but I did have a great dry run on the TT course I'm riding in Sept. on my Cdale Slice. It's rolling hills, and after 10-15 mins. on this course grinding up gradual upgrades into the headwind I'm thinking 'it's going to be tough to average 20mph here'.

Incorrect.

The downhills on this road were friggin SCREAMING on a TT bike. 30-40mph for considerable stretches. I ran out of gear to pedal for hundreds of meters a couple of times and just had to tuck and roll. Man that was a blast. TT bikes are in hyperdrive going down a hill. Amazing. I'm a speed junkie, no fear, loved it. In the end I actually averaged about 21mph for 14 miles. That will be faster on race day with Zipps, TT helmet and race day adrenaline.

Dr. W. will average 28mph : ).

I don't care. I love the whole TT thing. Right up Pcad's alley. Like I said you can't get dropped in a TT. Besides, I'm already not the slowest TT guy in NY State (I'm ranked like 98th out of 140 or so 35+ dudes). Next step: get up into the top half of the Master's rankings. That's really cool: training for races and trying to crawl up that USCF ranking ladder.

Anyway, it was Big Fun, and I did enjoy the course. I'll ride it at least three more times prior to race day. I know the road fairly well, but on TT day I'll have ridden it on my TT bike at least four times. This ROCKS. Never thought I'd like the TT thing so much. Very cool. A welcome new focus for my riding, and an outstanding way to stay involved in racing as I get older.

Last edited by patentcad; 08-14-07 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 08-14-07, 07:51 PM   #2
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Well, not really, but I did have a great dry run on the TT course I'm riding in Sept. on my Cdale Slice. It's rolling hills, and after 10-15 mins. on this course grinding up gradual upgrades into the headwind I'm thinking 'it's going to be tough to average 20mph here'.

Incorrect.

The downhills on this road were friggin SCREAMING on a TT bike. 30-40mph for considerable stretches. I ran out of gear to pedal for hundreds of meters a couple of times and just had to tuck and roll. Man that was a blast. Averaged about 21mph for 14 miles. That will be faster on race day with Zipps, TT helmet and race day adrenaline.

Dr. W. will average 28mph : ).

I don't care. I love the whole TT thing. Right up Pcad's alley. Like I said you can't get dropped in a TT. Besides, I'm already not the slowest TT guy in NY State (I'm ranked like 98th out of 140 or so 35+ dudes). Next step: get up into the top half of the Master's rankings.

Baby steps my little weenies, baby steps.
Good idea to run the course early. I would guess others who have done that course will have some high gears for those downhill sections. Maybe some tall gearing is a good idea ? You probably already are thinking about this anyway. Sounds like great fun!
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Old 08-14-07, 07:54 PM   #3
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I really want a TT bike
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Old 08-14-07, 07:57 PM   #4
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Good idea to run the course early. I would guess others who have done that course will have some high gears for those downhill sections. Maybe some tall gearing is a good idea ? You probably already are thinking about this anyway. Sounds like great fun!
I think at speeds above 40 MPH you'd be better off resting than trying to get to 40.5 MPH.
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Old 08-14-07, 08:17 PM   #5
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I think at speeds above 40 MPH you'd be better off resting than trying to get to 40.5 MPH.
That's a good point. Any other thoughts on this? This course might be one where a 54-56 tooth chainring might be very useful, but how many mph would that give you vs. the recovery time you can get on those stretches?
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Old 08-14-07, 08:50 PM   #6
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TT bikes are fun, I know. Glad you enjoyed it! Just wait til you've got full aero gear -- it happens more often haha.

You want to push some power downhill, albeit less than you push downhill. If you're spinning out, maybe you should look into the FSA stuff. Even if you're not pushing much, you want some wattage then.
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Old 08-14-07, 09:45 PM   #7
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While I have procured a goofy looking LG aero helmet, the skinsuit was a non-starter for me. Wearing the one my LBS ordered for me was like a full-body turniquet. Not a chance. Maybe I have to try the next size up. Of course the lack of pockets sucks - I'll have to find one with a zip up rear pocket. I figure the helmet and wheels might save me a minute in a 40 min. TT. The skinsuit might be worth 15 seconds.

Talk to me after that 15 secs. keeps me out of the top ten at a future TT.
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Old 08-14-07, 09:49 PM   #8
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That's a good point. Any other thoughts on this? This course might be one where a 54-56 tooth chainring might be very useful, but how many mph would that give you vs. the recovery time you can get on those stretches?

It's going to depend on the course,the hill, the weather, your legs, etc. The answer is "it depends".
Can you somehow try a big ring on the course before the race and see how you like it? Can you try out all your TT gear on the course? That would be good. Twice is better, once resting down the hills and once pedaling down the hills. That would mean more than anything else. It still may not be an obvious answer.
If you're spinning out at 40, 42 mph pedaling should be OK. It depends.
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Old 08-14-07, 10:40 PM   #9
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I think at speeds above 40 MPH you'd be better off resting than trying to get to 40.5 MPH.
Unless you've just totally dumped your ***** on a long climb, crested the top and spun out your 55/11, it's a big no.

One MPH is HUGE in a TT, even if it's only for a couple of miles. That's 5 seconds at 40, 8 seconds at 30. Pizza came in second Sunday's TT by .8 seconds. You decide.

Plus there's a carryover onto the parts of the course where you begin to slow.

If you're not putting out watts throughout, you're losing time.

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Old 08-14-07, 11:19 PM   #10
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As my team is the one sponsoring the TT, I thought I would chime in. My plan is a 54 up front (my standard setup) and a 11-25 in the back. I will be pedaling the whole time. The course is not a technical one, but the climbs are just enough to make one suffer.

What do you need a rear zipper for?

28mph on that course? I am thinking no, but who knows. Prob more likely around 26 or so. I haven't done the course in a few years start to finish (though I have ridden parts of it). For people to get an idea of what we are talking about

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Old 08-14-07, 11:20 PM   #11
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great now ive decided i need a TT bike...but but i also need a cross bike for the upcoming season, and of course my HT MTB needs to FS friend for my tired back...maaan

sounds like a lot of fun and good luck!!

With a broken collarbone a 1.5 months ago IM just now starting to feel comfortable going fast on a bike. Damn crash put the fear of god into me LoL.
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Old 08-15-07, 04:32 AM   #12
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Buy more stuff!!!!!
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Old 08-15-07, 04:35 AM   #13
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26mph. God help me you genetic mutant. I'll be happy with anything over 22mph. But I will procure a 54 or 55 tooth big ring for my TT bike. That's the beauty of TT's I suppose. I can't race Dr. W. (That would be like me trying to hit a baseball against Roger Clemens). It's just Pcad vs. the clock and every other 45+ mope with aerobars. I would agree with Dr. W. - the climbs aren't really 'climbs', but long enough to put you in the hurt locker (the opening upgrade is mostly uphill for about 2+ miles). The best part about this roller coaster course? About 3 miles from the end it becomes a very fast course into a screaming 35mph+ descent to the finish. That's nice to look forward to. My last TT (High Point) saved the hardest parts for the last 200 meters.

I ride on this road 5-6x annually on long rides anyway, and I've even done a road race on half of it, so I'm very familar with the course. It's only about 20 miles from my home.
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Old 08-15-07, 07:30 AM   #14
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Unless you've just totally dumped your ***** on a long climb, crested the top and spun out your 55/11, it's a big no.

One MPH is HUGE in a TT, even if it's only for a couple of miles. That's 5 seconds at 40, 8 seconds at 30. Pizza came in second Sunday's TT by .8 seconds. You decide.
Going from 340 watts to 350 watts up hill is worth something like 9 seconds up a 8% hill of 1 mile.

Going from 0 watts to 300 watts down that same hill is worth 8 seconds.

Granted, those numbers are extrapolated from Kreuzotter; but unlike Kreuzotter, they do NOT include an improvement in aerodynamics from going from 120 RPM to 0 RPM, and the presumed better position involved. If you include that effect, you're faster going down the hill without pedaling.

Just like when the pros go down the back side of the mountain...

You decide.
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Old 08-15-07, 08:31 AM   #15
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Most TT's don't have 8% grades -- you want to pedal both ways. Yes, you go harder up a hill, but you should be pushing something down the hill. If you're aiming for a 320W TT, go 330 up and 310 down. Something like that.

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Going from 340 watts to 350 watts up hill is worth something like 9 seconds up a 8% hill of 1 mile.

Going from 0 watts to 300 watts down that same hill is worth 8 seconds.

Granted, those numbers are extrapolated from Kreuzotter; but unlike Kreuzotter, they do NOT include an improvement in aerodynamics from going from 120 RPM to 0 RPM, and the presumed better position involved. If you include that effect, you're faster going down the hill without pedaling.
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Old 08-15-07, 08:33 AM   #16
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>> Kreuzotter<<

This sounds like you got it from a Simpsons episode.
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Old 08-15-07, 08:58 AM   #17
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About 3 miles from the end it becomes a very fast course into a screaming 35mph+ descent to the finish. That's nice to look forward to.
All TTs should end in with a downhill, at least slightly downhill section for the last mile or two. It should be in the rule books somewhere.

My TT this weekend in a tri I'm doing climbs for the last 2.5 miles, that just ain't right, so just about the point my heart is about to explode, hey now would be a great time to get off my bike and go for a run....
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Old 08-15-07, 09:23 AM   #18
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While I have procured a goofy looking LG aero helmet, the skinsuit was a non-starter for me. Wearing the one my LBS ordered for me was like a full-body turniquet. Not a chance. Maybe I have to try the next size up. Of course the lack of pockets sucks - I'll have to find one with a zip up rear pocket. I figure the helmet and wheels might save me a minute in a 40 min. TT. The skinsuit might be worth 15 seconds.

Talk to me after that 15 secs. keeps me out of the top ten at a future TT.
Why do you want pockets on your skinsuit? That kind of defeats the purpose.
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Old 08-15-07, 09:32 AM   #19
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Most TT's don't have 8% grades -- you want to pedal both ways. Yes, you go harder up a hill, but you should be pushing something down the hill. If you're aiming for a 320W TT, go 330 up and 310 down. Something like that.
I concur, but from the description - spinning out at 40 MPH - I assumed a grade.

And if you're aiming for a 320 W TT, I think the numbers should have a much greater discrepancy between the uphill and the downhill, assuming the downhill is such that you can spin it out.
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Old 08-15-07, 09:33 AM   #20
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Why do you want pockets on your skinsuit? That kind of defeats the purpose.
Really, does a skinsuit serve any purpose unless you're so friggin fast that you're worried about losing the TT by 10 seconds? What's the aero advantage of a skinsuit vs. regular tight fitting lycra bibs/jerseys? Somebody in this weenie convention MUST have that data, complete with charts, graphs and 3D modeling studies. It would have to be fairly insignificant compared to the aero gear I already do have - aero wheels (Zipp 404s) and a LG TT helmet. Important to competitive riders of course, but maybe not for a guy like me who's goal is to move up into the top half of the results.

Why do I want a small pocket in my skinsuit? So I don't have to leave my car key under a rock, that's why.

If I'm wrong about this I promise to revist the skinsuit issue. I'm telling you the one (size Large) I tried on in the bike shop was like a Full Body Turniquet. Forget that. Large jerseys and bibs fit me very well. They must design aero suits for guys who weigh 150lbs. I'm more like 170. Are you kidding? I could barely get the stupid thing on. If I gained 5lbs, I'd never wear it again. The most amazingly uncomfortable piece of clothing since the hair shirt. At any rate, based on that fitting, I'd have to try an XL (at least in that particular brand).
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Old 08-15-07, 09:36 AM   #21
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Come'on PD,
Ya' gotta be havin' some "fun" now,eh?
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Old 08-15-07, 09:38 AM   #22
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What's the aero advantage of a skinsuit vs. regular tight fitting lycra bibs/jerseys? Somebody in this weenie convention MUST have that data, complete with charts, graphs and 3D modeling studies. It would have to be fairly insignificant compared to the aero gear I already do have - aero wheels (Zipp 404s) and a LG TT helmet. Important to competitive riders of course, but maybe not for a guy like me who's goal is to move up into the top half of the results.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...06#post4498806 says ten watts.
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Old 08-15-07, 09:39 AM   #23
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Lucky you, you have me to do the legwork for yah .

http://www.socalttseries.com/Trainin...7/Default.aspx

The figure i've always heard is 10-15W saved by wearing a skinsuit. In my mind, there's no point wearing the LG helmet if you don't have a skinsuit (OK, there is...but whatever). You're not in it that long, and it doesn't feel so much like a tourniquet when you're riding in your aero position, because it's not as stretched as when you're standing up trying it on.

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Really, does a skinsuit serve any purpose unless you're so friggin fast that you're worried about losing the TT by 10 seconds? What's the aero advantage of a skinsuit vs. regular tight fitting lycra bibs/jerseys? Somebody in this weenie convention MUST have that data, complete with charts, graphs and 3D modeling studies. It would have to be fairly insignificant compared to the aero gear I already do have - aero wheels (Zipp 404s) and a LG TT helmet. Important to competitive riders of course, but maybe not for a guy like me who's goal is to move up into the top half of the results.

Why do I want a small pocket in my skinsuit? So I don't have to leave my car key under a rock, that's why.

If I'm wrong about this I promise to revist the skinsuit issue. I'm telling you the one (size Large) I tried on in the bike shop was like a Full Body Turniquet. Forget that. Large jerseys and bibs fit me very well. They must design aero suits for guys who weigh 150lbs. I'm more like 170. Are you kidding? I could barely get the stupid thing on. If I gained 5lbs, I'd never wear it again. The most amazingly uncomfortable piece of clothing since the hair shirt. At any rate, based on that fitting, I'd have to try an XL (at least in that particular brand).
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Old 08-15-07, 09:47 AM   #24
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The LG helmet is so friggin ******** looking (I look like some bad version of George Jetson with it) that I had to debate long and hard about even procuring it. In the end, anyone who looks like this:



is going nowhere fast in the Good Lookin' Contest, so I figured what the F.

OK, OK, I'll reconsider the skinsuit. You guys are turning me into a TT Weenie Deluxe.
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Old 08-15-07, 09:50 AM   #25
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I hear you, Pcad, I look like an idiot in my aero helmet, too. Insert joke here.


Out of curiousity, what type of car do you drive?
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