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    666
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    Attitudes: TT races vs. crit races

    One of the turn-offs in crit racing for me was the over-abundance of holier-than-though, prima-donna types. Many of the whom would spend the whole race sucking wheel, never taking a turn at the front, just to save everything for a finishing sprint. I only did a couple of sanctioned TTs back then (9 years ago) but it seemed to be a much more laid-back crowd. Much more of an "I'm here to race the clock and myself" mentality.

    Has this been your experience?
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    Acquiring new target.... carlfreddy's Avatar
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    Isn't the idea, in a criterium, to spend as much time as possible sheltered from the wind, saving your legs for the sprint finish?

    I'm no Pro (just a lowly Cat4), but my coach (former Cat1/semi-pro) tells me to "stay at the front but not on the front" before every criterium. In fact, after one race where I spent some time pulling the pack, he adamantly told me to "never pull like that again, stay in the pack, out of the wind."

    Like I said, I'm not a Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night......

    EDIT: Now, I can't comment on the "prima-donna-ness" of crit racers in my area, 'cause all the ones I know have been super nice and more than willing to give advice off the bike. When we're racing, that's another story.....
    There are only 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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    avoid the sprint.

    Hit out in a small group.

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    i got nothing. Crash716's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666 View Post
    One of the turn-offs in crit racing for me was the over-abundance of holier-than-though, prima-donna types. Many of the whom would spend the whole race sucking wheel, never taking a turn at the front, just to save everything for a finishing sprint. I only did a couple of sanctioned TTs back then (9 years ago) but it seemed to be a much more laid-back crowd. Much more of an "I'm here to race the clock and myself" mentality.

    Has this been your experience?
    welcome to Crit racing. you too will become a wheel sucking ho if you start racing crits...or blow yourself up the first 3-4 laps and finish mid to back pack. My friend who is pretty good says "unlike nascar they are more than willing to give you the lead in crit racing". As far as racers being a bunch of sallies...there are cry-babies and A-holes in every sport...just stay away from them, most of the guys are cool from my experience...


    [disclaimer] i too know nothing, and have also stayed at a holiday inn.
    14 days...

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    666
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlfreddy View Post
    Isn't the idea, in a criterium, to spend as much time as possible sheltered from the wind, saving your legs for the sprint finish?

    I'm no Pro (just a lowly Cat4), but my coach (former Cat1/semi-pro) tells me to "stay at the front but not on the front" before every criterium. In fact, after one race where I spent some time pulling the pack, he adamantly told me to "never pull like that again, stay in the pack, out of the wind."

    Like I said, I'm not a Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night......

    EDIT: Now, I can't comment on the "prima-donna-ness" of crit racers in my area, 'cause all the ones I know have been super nice and more than willing to give advice off the bike. When we're racing, that's another story.....
    Yeah, yeah. Someone's got to be at the front. What happens if no one steps up? The race stops?
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    semifreddo amartuerer 'nother's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666 View Post
    Yeah, yeah. Someone's got to be at the front. What happens if no one steps up? The race stops?
    ha ha. Well, *someone* will be at the front. Sometimes it will be a "sacrificial" team member, sent to the front to inflict pain on everyone else (but who himself will not finish well, maybe even get pulled). Or it might be a clueless newbie such as myself who is happy to be at the front so his family can see him on the first few laps before getting completely shelled by the end of the race.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666 View Post
    One of the turn-offs in crit racing for me was the over-abundance of holier-than-though, prima-donna types. Many of the whom would spend the whole race sucking wheel, never taking a turn at the front, just to save everything for a finishing sprint. I only did a couple of sanctioned TTs back then (9 years ago) but it seemed to be a much more laid-back crowd. Much more of an "I'm here to race the clock and myself" mentality.

    Has this been your experience?
    The type of racing is much more intense so the mood is more intense.


    Guys, who sit in the pack to sprint will never be respected and racers will never wont to work with them, also the people who usually do this are not strong in the first place.
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    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    Guys, who sit in the pack to sprint will never be respected and racers will never wont to work with them, also the people who usually do this are not strong in the first place.
    Dont hate us because we're fast

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    666
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    So, what are your experiences w/ the TT crowd?
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    Mitcholo CrimsonKarter21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    The type of racing is much more intense so the mood is more intense.


    Guys, who sit in the pack to sprint will never be respected and racers will never wont to work with them, also the people who usually do this are not strong in the first place.
    Dumb thing to say. Someone who stays at the front for more than a quick "courtesy pull" is usually one of these, or a combination:
    a.) A teammate for a stronger guy
    b.) Not very smart (me in my first race)
    c.) Dumb
    d.) Trying to prove something
    e.) Doesn't think aerodynamics exist
    f.) Thinks he can stay there for the sprint and win (read 'c')


    Tell me, did you ever watch the TdF, Vueleta or the Giro? Did you ever see Lance, Di Luca, Contador, Ulrich, and especially Boonen in the front pulling more than a handful of riders? I really didn't think so. A smart racer stays in the front quarter to third of the peloton. That's like saying that you should do work the hard, strenous way just because it's harder than doing it the quick effiecient way. There are people willing to break the wind for you, take advantage of them.

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    666
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonKarter21 View Post

    Tell me, did you ever watch the TdF, Vueleta or the Giro? Did you ever see Lance, Di Luca, Contador, Ulrich, and especially Boonen in the front pulling more than a handful of riders? I really didn't think so.
    Umm, those guys have domestiques who are paid to pull for them.

    Can we get back on topic, please?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonKarter21 View Post
    Dumb thing to say. Someone who stays at the front for more than a quick "courtesy pull" is usually one of these, or a combination:
    a.) A teammate for a stronger guy
    b.) Not very smart (me in my first race)
    c.) Dumb
    d.) Trying to prove something
    e.) Doesn't think aerodynamics exist
    f.) Thinks he can stay there for the sprint and win (read 'c')


    Tell me, did you ever watch the TdF, Vueleta or the Giro? Did you ever see Lance, Di Luca, Contador, Ulrich, and especially Boonen in the front pulling more than a handful of riders? I really didn't think so. A smart racer stays in the front quarter to third of the peloton. That's like saying that you should do work the hard, strenous way just because it's harder than doing it the quick effiecient way. There are people willing to break the wind for you, take advantage of them.
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    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666 View Post
    So, what are your experiences w/ the TT crowd?
    I never raced a lot of TT's other than club rides or part of a stage race, unless you count Pursuits. Always seemed like everyone was pretty much into themselves, warming up apart, ect. Never took it as a personal thing, just part of prepairing for a solo effort.

    Not sure what you're getting at with the crit "attitude"? Never really saw that myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 666 View Post
    So, what are your experiences w/ the TT crowd?
    Exactly as you said, laid back People laughing, no one really gets that disapointed with a loss.

    Everytime I go to a club TT, sanctioned or not (just as long as its not part of a pretty big stage race) people will talk and relax all the way to 5 seconds to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
    I never raced a lot of TT's other than club rides or part of a stage race, unless you count Pursuits. Always seemed like everyone was pretty much into themselves, warming up apart, ect. Never took it as a personal thing, just part of prepairing for a solo effort.

    Not sure what you're getting at with the crit "attitude"? Never really saw that myself.
    Crits are typically much more intense, people will yell and ride hard. Fight for wheels and rock people with the shoulder, Its much more competitive.
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    Senior Member skinny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    The type of racing is much more intense so the mood is more intense.


    Guys, who sit in the pack to sprint have names like McEwen, Zabel, Bennatti, Petacchi, Freire, Casper, Nazon, on and on.
    Fixed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    Crits are typically much more intense, people will yell and ride hard. Fight for wheels and rock people with the shoulder, Its much more competitive.
    I've raced hundreds of Crits. Typically ride around BS'ing during warmups, catch up on the weeks gossip, say your hello's and pull up to the line. No different than a Sunday training ride. Intensity starts after clipping both cleats in.

    If I was allowed to ride next to you in a TT, would it be any different? It's a solo effort so a good riders focus is inward, if im racing against others my focus is on them out of necessity.

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    Mitcholo CrimsonKarter21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by recneps View Post
    Another person on my ignore list.
    Ooooh, I'm being ignored. Then you won't read this, however true or false it may be (I don't really care which, and I don't even think I mean it): You're a dolt.

    Quote Originally Posted by 666 View Post
    Umm, those guys have domestiques who are paid to pull for them.

    Can we get back on topic, please?
    So? The guys at your local races have their loyal teammates pull for them. If you're on a team, any you've got a superstrong guy,a nd you ride at 70% of what he does, and want him to get the best possible finishing position, are you going to sit in the back and yell to the guys in front to pull faster or slower? No.

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    Time trials are called "The Race of Truth" for a reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666 View Post
    One of the turn-offs in crit racing for me was the over-abundance of holier-than-though, prima-donna types. Many of the whom would spend the whole race sucking wheel, never taking a turn at the front, just to save everything for a finishing sprint. I only did a couple of sanctioned TTs back then (9 years ago) but it seemed to be a much more laid-back crowd. Much more of an "I'm here to race the clock and myself" mentality.

    Has this been your experience?
    No. This has not been my experience. My experience is that the bike racing crowd is a bunch of really nice folks and it cracks me up when I read about "elitist" attitudes, prima-donna types, etc. when directed at bike racers.

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    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonKarter21 View Post
    Dumb thing to say. Someone who stays at the front for more than a quick "courtesy pull" is usually one of these, or a combination:
    a.) A teammate for a stronger guy
    b.) Not very smart (me in my first race)
    c.) Dumb
    d.) Trying to prove something
    e.) Doesn't think aerodynamics exist
    f.) Thinks he can stay there for the sprint and win (read 'c')


    Tell me, did you ever watch the TdF, Vueleta or the Giro? Did you ever see Lance, Di Luca, Contador, Ulrich, and especially Boonen in the front pulling more than a handful of riders? I really didn't think so. A smart racer stays in the front quarter to third of the peloton. That's like saying that you should do work the hard, strenous way just because it's harder than doing it the quick effiecient way. There are people willing to break the wind for you, take advantage of them.

    Good luck winning races with that thought process.

    Tell me, how did Lance win his World Championship? How has Boonen won a good amount of his Classics victories? What about Di Luca in the Ardennes classics? Damn near every Paris-Roubaix?

    Solo breaks coming out of small groups, or a sprint among a half dozen guys, if that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
    I've raced hundreds of Crits. Typically ride around BS'ing during warmups, catch up on the weeks gossip, say your hello's and pull up to the line. No different than a Sunday training ride. Intensity starts after clipping both cleats in.

    If I was allowed to ride next to you in a TT, would it be any different? It's a solo effort so a good riders focus is inward, if im racing against others my focus is on them out of necessity.
    Yeah, in a TT when I pass riders, I might yell something stupid like 'put it in the big ring' or slow down enough to say ' well its definatly uphill' (Both I've actuatly said in an uphill tt) with a little chuckle afterwards. Or maybe Ill give them a wink.

    Typically the start line of a cirt is focused, people are jittery, they will tap their bars or saddle or mess with their wheels, check the break. People show signs of nerves, not gossiping. I cant say I've raced hundreds of crits only a handful of cat 2 crits in fact. So maybe it gets different at the pro level or after your first hundred crits.
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    Astute observation 666. I regularly participated in mass start racing for 7 seasons, but never did a TT. This spring I did my first USCF TT. What a nice change. Much more like a triathlon or running race - minimal elitist BS, more diverse crowd, all ages, very cool. It really surprised me, I loved it. Even the typical Cat 2/3 pinheads were less stand-offish. But some of stupid elitism exhibited by a few (and it permeates bicycle racing in my experience) couldn't spoil the vibe. Very cool indeed.

    I understand that attitude. That's fine, not everybody is that way, and that is totally their affair. I never let that bother me when I raced. Actually the faster they are, generally speaking, the less douchy they tend to be. But regardless, that's bike racing, comes with the territory. Plenty of cool people, the camraderie is generally the best part, and the pinheads... they're the only people impressed with how fast they are, and nobody else really seems to care. I always chose to focus on the many friends and aquaintances that make the sport so much fun. If you approach it that way, the 'elitism' will never phase you. It becomes amusing after a while.

    To some extent, these dudes are entitled to any head trip they want to take. They train hard enough. The sport is hard enough. I can respect that, even if I think it's a bit self absorbed and silly. I'm self absorbed and silly too. I'm just too slow to be stand-offish at a bike race : ).

  24. #24
    Senior Member skinny's Avatar
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    Every race is different. How Lance won his WC is pretty much irrelevant as is how Boonen won a race like any classic when compared to riding in a crit. Choosing a hilly 260km plus road race and suggesting that the selection a course like that makes is somehow comparable to the selection a flat 1 mile rectangle will make is, well, let's just say it's a poor analogy.

    Sitting in and sprinting is a fairly standard strategy in racing, especially in criteriums. It's part of racing.

  25. #25
    Mitcholo CrimsonKarter21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    Good luck winning races with that thought process.

    Tell me, how did Lance win his World Championship? How has Boonen won a good amount of his Classics victories? What about Di Luca in the Ardennes classics? Damn near every Paris-Roubaix?

    Solo breaks coming out of small groups, or a sprint among a half dozen guys, if that.
    If you read my post, you'd see that I said sometihng to the effect of...
    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonKarter21
    Tell me, did you ever watch the TdF, Vueleta or the Giro? Did you ever see Lance, Di Luca, Contador, Ulrich, and especially Boonen in the front pulling more than a handful of riders?
    With reading skills like yours I have to wonder why you haven't run for president yet...
    We're not talking about solo breaks, we're talking about pulling the main group, which is dumb and pointless unless you fall under the afforementioned circumstances.
    Aren't you in college? I'm a senior in a vocational school in a farm town full of stoners and I can dissect a paragraph better. Jeez!

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