patentcad

I had a good day on the Nyack Ride today. Still, I think the way I felt on the last hill is revealing. The ride was relatively slow for the first 25 miles, fairly fast for the last 20+ miles. The finish involves a 2 mile flat section into a .75 mile climb (Hook Mtn). Today this dude goes to the front and we have to chase @ 28-30mph leading into the climb, which did soften things up somewhat. Here's the profile of the hill (all guesstimates):

• .3 miles @ average grade of 3-4%

• 100-150 meters @ 8-10% (slight steep kicker)

• .4 miles @ average grade of 6-7%

So I hang with the leaders for the first .3 miles, then it gets steeper. I simply didn't have the power (lactic acid overload) to hang up the steeper grade, I get gapped pretty bad. Then on the last .4 mile section I sit in the saddle, settle into a good tempo, actually UPshift and pass 4-5 stragglers. In other words, I appear to be riding @ the lead group's pace on the first part of the climb, and possibly the last part of the climb, but not on the steeper short section where I get gapped.

That sort of speaks to a need for more power, no? Bear in mind that this hill does hit you @ mile 45 or so, 45 rather hard, fast miles at that, so it's not like your legs are going to be overly fresh.

Any thoughts?

elgalad

If you have some weight to lose, then nthat would make a big difference, even 4-5 lbs is a surprisingly large amount of weight to be hauling up a 10% grade.

In general, think you're spot on with needing more power. W/kg is the deciding factor on those sorts of inclines. Either power must go up, or weight must go down. I'd be trying to find some longer hills of similar grade (a 10-15 minutes effort would be perfect) and doing hill repeats up that at lactate threshold, with some hard accelerations mixed in.

I do these at about 180 bpm (LTHR), then accelerate out of the saddle until my HR hits about 190, then sit down and ease up a bit until you HR drops back down. Repeat until you're about to fall off your bike.

One of these workouts per week should see you improving on the steep grades within 4-5 weeks.

Duke of Kent

Some people are just better suited for some grades than they are others. I can absolutely haul on false flats and 4-5% grades but I'm pretty poor at power climbs. I have better w/kg than damn near everyone but something about the 15+% grades just put me in the hurt box more than most.

Gibo Simoni vs. Armstrong sort of thing. Diesel 8 vs. Turbo inline 6.

cmh

It sounds like your LT power is very good and your power down to 5-10 minutes. What you can't handle is the bursts into severe anaerobia. I would do a weekly ride of 1 minute intervals (waterrockets is the resident expert on these minutes of pain). Another thing to try is Tabata intervals or Crit Sprints. These are intervals that are something like 10-20second all out followed by 10-20 seconds easy. They are supposed to tax all of your energy systems at once. They will give you that burst of power that lets you hang with the tough acceleration when you are already hurting.

wfrogge

Its just as important to work on climbing technique as it is LT training. Do you climb all the time or is this a once in a year thing?

Squint

1. Lots of base.
2. Work on your pedaling technique.
3. Hit the weight room.
4. Ride on a trainer with the front wheel elevated.
5. Ride with a weighted vest.

elgalad

1-3 are ridiculously generalized training tips.

4-5 are just blatantly a waste of time.

seppomadness

+1. Prolly just on your V02 limit. They could go and you couldn't. In reality there is probably nothing you can do. You are probably quite fit so once you return to the saddle you pull 5-10bpm back off your HR and can again follow tempo of the top boys.

Id just let them go on the steeper gradient and try to hold a slighter higher tempo on the upper section of the climb to see if you can pull yourself back onto their wheel. Meh, feel free to ignore me

patentcad

It is the severe anaerobia of that 30 second effort @ mile 45 that makes me back off - I'm afraid if I try to hang with those guys I'll blow every gasket and finish DFL. Like I said, I wind up riding within myself and increase my tempo after that steep section. Bear in mind that of a 20 man peloton (that is the remnant of a 50-60 man group that starts this ride) I would guess 6-7 guys have already been shelled by the time I drop off. Then I pick off 4 guys on the climb and finish 10th or so.

Base miles? I've ridden over 10K miles this year already. Too many friggin base miles. I need more quality miles.

Weight loss: that's really the key for me. I'm trying. I've lost a fair bit of weight. I need a new scale, because my Tanita told me I was 38% body fat this AM (it's busted, I've never seen over 20% in my life, even when I was over 200lbs.) So I'm not sure what my weight is, but the Tanita said 174lbs this AM. I need to get that down to <170lbs to climb the way I want to. I'm working on that (I'm 5'11"). The lightest I've ever raced @ was 166-168lbs or so, that's really my goal. It is amazing how much harder losing weight has gotten in the past couple of years. And the very odd part of this is that I look like I'm under 170 now, but I'm not. Go figure. I'll get there, and I'll keep it off. It's too hard losing the weight.

I have gotten faster and I am riding better than I have since I returned to cycling 2.5 years ago. I'm not as fast/fit as I was when I was @ my best @ age 35, but I'm not too far off. I was never that great (cat 4 for life), but at this point could I hang in most vets races? I think so. For me the Nyack Ride is my weekly vets race, and the TT's are the real ones. The Nyack Ride was always harder than most of my races 10 years ago anyway.

I am convinced I can get faster. The faster you are, the funner it gets boys.

Bullseye

If this was not a joke, it should be.



-bullseye

patentcad

Correct.

And it should be funnier.

Snuffleupagus

Ride half as much, twice as hard.

patentcad

Twice as hard. You're joking right? I'm chasing 27 year old Cat 2's now. I'll start with riding 20% fewer miles next year, more rest days, smarter training and take it from there. I think I can log over 10K miles per year, get faster and still have sufficient recovery/rest days.

My Pcad Moment of the Month came yesterday when I realized we weren't going to ever catch the guys off the front unless the pace was elevated. I jumped from position #6-7 in a 28mph paceline, jammed to the front, passed the pro triathlete who was on point and elevated the pace to over 30mph and stayed there for about 500 meters. That did get things motivated for a while at least. That triathlete dude was one of the stragglers I passed on the final climb. Very nice guy, says he can ride 112 miles in under 5 hours. 5 hours @ 22mph on a TT bike. That's insane. Ouch.

You take your encouragement in cycling anywhere you can get it, no matter how pathetic.

Snuffleupagus

Meh, you asked. I guarantee that just about any coach will tell you the same thing.

ri_us

You need to improve your strenght to weight ratio. If you can, drop a few pounds to drop the weight side. Also, get ye to the gym (or do some intervals) to get the strength side up. It's usually a better strategy to do both because they both change slowly. This particularly true on the strength side if you're a MOCA (man of a certain age). Somewhere after our 30th birthday, our bodies slow down hormonal production that promote muscle maintenence. This means you have to work harder to keep the strenght you get.

Duke of Kent

I'm not going to listen to any coach who tells me to cut my training volume in half.

Riding 8k miles a year just isn't going to cut it for me, sorry. And I don't even train that hard...

Snuffleupagus

I don't want to get into a pissing contest here, but you just said "I don't even train that hard" so perhaps you might be better served by training harder.

Whatever works for you though. I'm not a coach, and I'm slow

patentcad

BF Pissing Contests RULE.

What does 'meh' stand for? God help me when my 13 year old daughter starts text messaging my old fogey ass. I won't know what the F she's talking about.

By the way, I'm slower, so you have that going for you.

patentcad

I know all about strength to weight ratio. What's amazing to me is how hard it is for me to lose weight. It's really astonishing. 2 years ago I was 8lbs lighter @ this time of year. I am trying. Good grief I burn enough calories to light a small town. I don't eat a lot of calories.

If I kill myself I'll get lighter.

Snuffleupagus

Sound it out, it's like a verbal shoulder shrug.

FatguyRacer

You need to come and do the Seagull Century here in MD. Bring your TT bike. You'll more than likely do the same or better just at tempo pace.

The more i read your posts, the more i relate too you. Very scary.

Duke of Kent

What I meant by that, and I apologize for the lack of detail on my part, is that I don't do a lot of intensity. I dig into the pain cave once a week during race weeks, and twice a week in non-race weeks. Most of the rest of my mileage is light tempo type work, just hanging out, occasionally a minute or two on the rivet to catch a hot girl or yell at some d-bag.

I'd rather be fresh for my races and also get a great workout in there than blowing up in the first 30 minutes because my legs are always shot. Basically I'm gradually raising my training load to the point where my current "tempo" isn't too shabby of a pace/wattage/effort, and letting everything else rise along with it.

It should be noted that I do very little to no sprint work. When I start losing races because of poor sprinting ability, and not overall weakness or tactical error on my part, then I'll start. Otherwise, it just takes too much out of the legs.

patentcad

22mph for 112 mph @ 'tempo pace' alone? No way. Maybe the Tour de France dudes.

Sorry Fat Guy Racer, there aren't any fat guys after Scratchup Road on the Nyack Ride. I'm the fattest guy and my neighbor's daughter calls me 'emaciated'. Despite KP's description, the course does not qualify as 'pancacke flat'. Particularly that Scratchup Mini-Climb from Hell. You'd all love it. .3 mile upgrade, 90º 17% downgrade/blind turn that accellerates you from 18mph to 35mph in 100 meters, 90º blind turn at the bottom of that into a .4 mile 12-15% upgrade full of gravel and potholes. That thins out the herd every Sunday. I don't recall ever seeing more than 20-25 guys make that split, it's almost always <20.

God help me, when I have a good day there it's more fun than powder skiing. And I don't know why.

FatguyRacer

I need to change that next season. It'll be hard to call myself fat at 6', 170lbs. I'm at 200 right now. Down from 255 in March.

This century is board flat. 22 mph on a TT bike is doable by mere mortals, ie USCF types. Me and a racing bud did a 2up TT on this century back when in 2000 and finished the 100 in about 4:25. We didnt kill ourselfs doing it and pretty much stayed in a high zone 3 low zone 4 pacing. 2000 was my last full racing season and the first year i was able to break the hour for a 40k. 58 min and change. So I was in pretty good condition that year.

waterrockets 

Very simple, but painful solution: sprints, 1-minute intervals, and steep hill repeats. Six of each, once/week, with a full recovery for each. Sprint recovery should be about 4-5 minutes, 1-minute interval recovery about 3-4 minutes, hill repeat recovery about as long as the descent and turnaround.

You live at the top of a good hill for repeats, right? Do the repeats with negative splits to learn how to pace yourself. NEVER accept that you just can't stay negative for 6 repeats. Learn to pace it so you nail it every workout.