Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-01-07, 11:57 AM   #1
kukusz
A Member
Thread Starter
 
kukusz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 855
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Zone 2 Training, Building Aerobic Capacity

I ran into this article, and it basically says what everyone else says about base training and zone 2 training.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/defaul...llstory&id=866

The gist of it is, without zone 2 or base training you severely limit your aerobic capacity. I've been trying to find some pubmed abstracts or something that has actually done a study to explain the physiology behind this effect.

Can anyone point me to some studies or explanations backed up by studies?
kukusz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 12:25 PM   #2
zimbo
Senior Member
 
zimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North Carolina
Bikes:
Posts: 2,040
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You may not know this, but you have opened a can of worms. I don't think anyone would argue that there's no need for a solid aerobic base. The point of contention on this an other forums seems to be centered around this statement in the article: "Pushing yourself towards the red zone negates aerobic gains during long easy rides."

I don't see how that could be pysiologically possible. I can see the concern for burnout, I can buy into the need to do some long rides, but I don't see how occasionally dipping into the red zone during a long ride could "negate aerobic gains." Obviously if you're going so hard that you can't ride for more than an hour you're not likely to build an aerobic base. But saying that you can't mix some intervals into a long ride at the risk of "negating the aerobic gains" seems like a hilariously indefensible statement from a scientific, physiological standpoint.

--Steve
zimbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 01:14 PM   #3
Squint
base training heretic
 
Squint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes: Cervelo P3C, many Litespeeds
Posts: 716
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
What do those scientists know? Are they even smarter than the average person? Just because they couldn't get base training to work for their test subjects under carefully controlled conditions doesn't mean you won't succeed where they failed. You have to have faith that base training works, even if no evidence supports it. The pros obviously ride a lot and base involves putting in a lot of time on the bike so the pros must be doing a lot of base.

The wider your base, the higher your peak!
Squint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 01:24 PM   #4
wfrogge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 3,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
With my training plan the " aerobic base" peroid goes from mid Oct till end of Jan. I train every day of the week and if I start creeping into zone 3 or higher during these workouts would run the risk of burnout when the season gets here.

So IMHO the real reason to say zone 2 or less during this time of year is to avoid burnout and give your body a rest from last season while maintaining fitness.
wfrogge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 01:41 PM   #5
kukusz
A Member
Thread Starter
 
kukusz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 855
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbo View Post
... The point of contention on this an other forums seems to be centered around this statement in the article: "Pushing yourself towards the red zone negates aerobic gains during long easy rides." I don't see how that could be pysiologically possible. I can see the concern for burnout, I can buy into the need to do some long rides, but I don't see how occasionally dipping into the red zone during a long ride could "negate aerobic gains."...
This was exactly why I posted the question. No one seems to be able to explain to me why I shouldn't ride hard during my limited time on the bike. As long as I am not burning out, why not ride hard 8 hours a week?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squint View Post
What do those scientists know? ... The wider your base, the higher your peak!
[edit] Can't tell if you are being sarcastic... [edit]
Squint, I'm sorry but saying "who cares about the scientists" is just asinine. I understand that anecdotal evidence can go a long way, but comparing my 8 hours a week to a pros 30+ hours a week and saying "the pros do it, it will work for you" doesn't make sense to me. I agree that a poorly conducted study or one that draws conclusions incorrectly is as dangerous, but I would like to evaluate that for myself. Our understanding of how our physiology works is always increasing, trusting Friel regarding his "wider base, higher peak" stuff is a good rule of thumb but doubtfully applies to everyones lifestyle.
kukusz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 02:01 PM   #6
kukusz
A Member
Thread Starter
 
kukusz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 855
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I answered my own question...

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm
kukusz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 02:23 PM   #7
wfrogge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 3,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kukusz View Post
This was exactly why I posted the question. No one seems to be able to explain to me why I shouldn't ride hard during my limited time on the bike. As long as I am not burning out, why not ride hard 8 hours a week?
Sometimes in order to get faster you got to ride slower. You cant ride 100% effort every ride and expect improvement year after year.
wfrogge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 02:31 PM   #8
kukusz
A Member
Thread Starter
 
kukusz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 855
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wfrogge View Post
Sometimes in order to get faster you got to ride slower. You cant ride 100% effort every ride and expect improvement year after year.
But why? Assuming I am recovering and staying motivated, why not?
kukusz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 03:14 PM   #9
wfrogge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 3,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kukusz View Post
But why? Assuming I am recovering and staying motivated, why not?
I used to inline speedskate on a very competitve team with several national champions. We would train three days a week at 100% personal effort with every workout. The first year of skating I improved leaps and bounds but hit a hard plateau for the next two. I would try and try to keep up with those fast skaters but failed... So I would try harder and even threw more training at the problem.

After three years I had a fall out with the coach and started my own team across town. None of the fast skaters came and I didnt have a coach screaming at me to push harder so my training intensity backed down to around 80% and lower. After 2 months of skating at this PE level I went back to skate one training session with my old team and found I was faster than anybody else on the floor except for one guy.

The rest gave my body a chance to build instead of tearing down with every workout.
wfrogge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 03:22 PM   #10
YMCA
starting pistol means war
 
YMCA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Bikes: Cervelo R3
Posts: 3,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wfrogge View Post
With my training plan the " aerobic base" peroid goes from mid Oct till end of Jan. I train every day of the week and if I start creeping into zone 3 or higher during these workouts would run the risk of burnout when the season gets here.

So IMHO the real reason to say zone 2 or less during this time of year is to avoid burnout and give your body a rest from last season while maintaining fitness.
You are spending 3.5 months doing Z12 stuff? That's cause for burnout in my book.

When I start training again, I'll go easy for a week to adjust the muscles, then start up the tempo until I feel fit enough to start throwing down hard.

The whole procees of building up to hard efforts (attacks, etc), takes no more than a month. After a month of that it's race time. So that's two months total to prepare.

Not saying you are wrong in your approach, just that who needs that much time to build such a simple base.
YMCA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 03:26 PM   #11
wfrogge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 3,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by YMCA View Post
You are spending 3.5 months doing Z12 stuff? That's cause for burnout in my book.

When I start training again, I'll go easy for a week to adjust the muscles, then start up the tempo until I feel fit enough to start throwing down hard.

The whole procees of building up to hard efforts (attacks, etc), takes no more than a month. After a month of that it's race time. So that's two months total to prepare.

Not saying you are wrong in your approach, just that who needs that much time to build such a simple base.
I do zone 2 intervals, climbing, tempo, and core workouts. Would rather ride zone 2 and keep some fitness than not ride at all and lose what ive gained.

This is also the time of year your work on technique... something you cant really do well while hammering mid season.
wfrogge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 03:52 PM   #12
wfrogge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 3,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I do creep into zone 3 every few workouts also..... Just that I dont stay there too long this time of year.
wfrogge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 03:57 PM   #13
YMCA
starting pistol means war
 
YMCA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Bikes: Cervelo R3
Posts: 3,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wfrogge View Post
I do creep into zone 3 every few workouts also..... Just that I dont stay there too long this time of year.

What zones do you use?
YMCA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 04:04 PM   #14
wfrogge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 3,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by YMCA View Post
What zones do you use?
High 2 to 3. Im keeping my HR below 161 (LTHR is around 185).
wfrogge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 04:34 PM   #15
YMCA
starting pistol means war
 
YMCA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Bikes: Cervelo R3
Posts: 3,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wfrogge View Post
High 2 to 3. Im keeping my HR below 161 (LTHR is around 185).
No, I meant who's zones do you use?
Because everyone uses different levels and number of zones. Friel, Coggan, USACycling, Ferrari, Baker, etc

I personally don't use any zones, just sensations of easy, moderate and hard, but it seems Coggan's power based stuff is most popular now with all the power meter guys (L1-7).
YMCA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 06:38 PM   #16
DrWJODonnell
Slow'n'Aero
 
DrWJODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Driving the pace in the crosswind
Bikes:
Posts: 2,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
here is a basic explanation for why to ride low intensity. as long as you are in the aerobic realm, you skew your body to believe it is resting when it is not. That is to say, if you're doing 150 watts of work at 120 BPM HR, your body will adapt quickly and you will be able to do the same workload at less, say 110 or 105BPM. In this way, you essentially raise the ceiling of where aerobic becomes anaerobic. Why is this important? Lactate threshold is VERY important.
DrWJODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 07:12 PM   #17
mkadam68
Senior Member
 
mkadam68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 30 minutes North-West of Los Angeles.
Bikes: 2012 MotorHouse road bike. No. You can't get one.
Posts: 3,678
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
here is a basic explanation for why to ride low intensity. as long as you are in the aerobic realm, you skew your body to believe it is resting when it is not. That is to say, if you're doing 150 watts of work at 120 BPM HR, your body will adapt quickly and you will be able to do the same workload at less, say 110 or 105BPM. In this way, you essentially raise the ceiling of where aerobic becomes anaerobic. Why is this important? Lactate threshold is VERY important.
After watching this type of discussion on several boards/posts, at least here is a reason. And it makes sense (not that I'm a Dr. or anything). But it doesn't answer the question completely (or maybe I'm dense--a distinct possibility).

But if a person's body adapts to 150w at 120bpm, won't it do the same at 200w at 140bpm? or 300w at 160bpm? What makes the lower intensity stuff magical? And because these workloads are higher, won't the adjustment be even higher than lower intensity stuff? (And of course, a person has to do recovery rides for this adjustment to occur.)
mkadam68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 08:29 PM   #18
bodaciousguy
faster than your mom
 
bodaciousguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: CA, USA
Bikes: R600, Specialized Tarmac Pro, Prophet w/ X0 components.
Posts: 180
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
why is no1 talking about this article? http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm.

We on Bf need to make up our minds across the board. What is best at building base? I talking the most idealistic scenario possible for a rider having the most motivation.

So take a look at the above link and think about it really hard.
bodaciousguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 08:30 PM   #19
NomadVW 
部門ニ/自転車オタク
 
NomadVW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Yuma, AZ
Bikes: 2005 Specialized Roubaix Elite, 2005 Specialized FSR XC Comp, 2008 Blue T16, 2009 Blue RC8, Fetish Cycles Road Bike
Posts: 3,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodaciousguy View Post
What is best at building base?


Ahahahahahahahaha
__________________
Envision, Energize, Enable
NomadVW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 08:32 PM   #20
NomadVW 
部門ニ/自転車オタク
 
NomadVW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Yuma, AZ
Bikes: 2005 Specialized Roubaix Elite, 2005 Specialized FSR XC Comp, 2008 Blue T16, 2009 Blue RC8, Fetish Cycles Road Bike
Posts: 3,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkadam68 View Post
But if a person's body adapts to 150w at 120bpm, won't it do the same at 200w at 140bpm? or 300w at 160bpm? What makes the lower intensity stuff magical? And because these workloads are higher, won't the adjustment be even higher than lower intensity stuff? (And of course, a person has to do recovery rides for this adjustment to occur.)
IF you have the time to work at the LOWER intensities FOR a LONGER period, the fatigue will generally be smaller and recovery is less painful. LOWER = LONGER.
__________________
Envision, Energize, Enable
NomadVW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 08:49 PM   #21
MDcatV
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 6,760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Simple summary of all base training discussions:

If you've got 1 to 1.5 hrs. of riding time on weekdays/workdays, and/or are on an indoor trainer, ride with higher intensity. If you've got time to do 3 hr. rides everyday, go and do them. On weekends, or whatever day(s) you don't have other life obligations, put in a 3 hr.-ish ride at terrain based intensity and have fun doing it. When you get closer to race season, you get more specific in your workouts, then when race season begins, you race, recover, race, recover, etc.
MDcatV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 08:58 PM   #22
seppomadness
Guest
 
Bikes:
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
Simple summary of all base training discussions:

If you've got 1 to 1.5 hrs. of riding time on weekdays/workdays, and/or are on an indoor trainer, ride with higher intensity. If you've got time to do 3 hr. rides everyday, go and do them. On weekends, or whatever day(s) you don't have other life obligations, put in a 3 hr.-ish ride at terrain based intensity and have fun doing it. When you get closer to race season, you get more specific in your workouts, then when race season begins, you race, recover, race, recover, etc.
Ahhhhh freds. Gotta lov em. Life is so simple to them. How cute.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-07, 09:00 PM   #23
seppomadness
Guest
 
Bikes:
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbo View Post

--Steve
Hey Steve impressive bolts! Titanium?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-07, 08:12 AM   #24
wfrogge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 3,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkadam68 View Post
After watching this type of discussion on several boards/posts, at least here is a reason. And it makes sense (not that I'm a Dr. or anything). But it doesn't answer the question completely (or maybe I'm dense--a distinct possibility).

But if a person's body adapts to 150w at 120bpm, won't it do the same at 200w at 140bpm? or 300w at 160bpm? What makes the lower intensity stuff magical? And because these workloads are higher, won't the adjustment be even higher than lower intensity stuff? (And of course, a person has to do recovery rides for this adjustment to occur.)
To be honest there is no right or wrong answer. Studies and tests have been done over the past 40 years that show riding easier during the pre-season winter months helps more than just hammering non stop year round. Regardless of why it helps (this is the real debate) its proven.

All I can say is try riding with hard workloads this winter and come up with your own answers.
wfrogge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-07, 08:19 AM   #25
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I have no "base" by the common definition, but I have a high aerobic capacity, training 75 miles/week.
waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:39 PM.