C'ndale SLICE or Specialized Trnzition?
11-02-07, 08:50 AM
#1
everyone has a plan...
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C'ndale SLICE or Specialized Trnzition?
ok- looking ahead at next season and thinking about a new TT frame.
i chose the two models in the title because they more or less represent the ends of the spectrum of where i'm looking.
the C'ndale is terribly thin. almost looks like its made of spider webs. pretty much a classic tube arrangement but VERY thin (top tube, seat stays, etc), and when being dragged thru air... les is more- right?
then you have the Specialized, Cervelo, Felt, Wilier ('08), etc... and you see this almost overabundance of surface area. now, laminar air flow, turbulance, etc. has been discussed ad nausseum...
but what the he!!?
very different solutions to the same problem.... all are raced on a professional level-
now, i'm not advocating a discussion that razors the testing data of the CdA to the 10^-10... i guess i'm more asking- are all the curvy swoops, hump back seat tubes, and forward thrusting down tubes more for our psyche than for our legs?
is there a placebo effect directly related to the amount of surface area and number/ location of swoops/ fins?
discuss, please.
i chose the two models in the title because they more or less represent the ends of the spectrum of where i'm looking.
the C'ndale is terribly thin. almost looks like its made of spider webs. pretty much a classic tube arrangement but VERY thin (top tube, seat stays, etc), and when being dragged thru air... les is more- right?
then you have the Specialized, Cervelo, Felt, Wilier ('08), etc... and you see this almost overabundance of surface area. now, laminar air flow, turbulance, etc. has been discussed ad nausseum...
but what the he!!?
very different solutions to the same problem.... all are raced on a professional level-
now, i'm not advocating a discussion that razors the testing data of the CdA to the 10^-10... i guess i'm more asking- are all the curvy swoops, hump back seat tubes, and forward thrusting down tubes more for our psyche than for our legs?
is there a placebo effect directly related to the amount of surface area and number/ location of swoops/ fins?
discuss, please.
11-02-07, 11:12 AM
#2
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Are you thinking of a last year's slice (six13) or the new slice that is carbon fiber godliness?
11-02-07, 11:31 AM
#4
Peloton Shelter Dog
I have the Six13 derivative. The bike RULES. You got a problem with that? I'll have to ride away from you really fast. And you'll probably catch me anyway.
11-02-07, 11:38 AM
#5
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(hands up in a surrender gesture)
no problem here. the six13 is an awesome bike. i like my friends six13 better than my own LOOK.
good choice.
no problem here. the six13 is an awesome bike. i like my friends six13 better than my own LOOK.
good choice.
11-02-07, 12:21 PM
#6
Peloton Shelter Dog
That new Cdale full CF TT bike looks nice. So does the Specialized. I think this is a no-lose situation. Worry about the motor. Any TT specifiic bike from a major company these days does not suck.
11-02-07, 12:51 PM
#8
Peloton Shelter Dog
Moral of the story: lots of TT bikes that have hardly been used go begging on eBay for 40% + less than what you'll pay @ the LBS. Depends on when you need the bike, but seeing as how it's early November I presume you have 5+ months to be an eBay Vulture. Figuring out what fits is a bit tougher.
11-02-07, 03:04 PM
#9
Senior Member
I know that all the aero in the world won't help if you're sitting wrong but I figure you got that bit figured out. A good position is worth a lot of aero dollars. In my previous life I fitted a guy using a Look Ergo stem on his steel winter beater bike and he went on to win some huge international Masters stage race in South America somewhere - he had a disk, trispoke, and aero bars, but otherwise the bike was a piece of junk. Another guy I fit was ranked top 10 in the country for duathletes (bike leg) - his aero equipment consisted of a HED disk wheel, a trispoke, and TT bars (on an otherwise stock lugged and glued Giant carbon bike with 105).
Anyway, on the bike side of things...
Slice is limited to the SI cranks - max 175mm crank from what I can tell, although the SRMs are cheaper for SI, at least on eBay. Not an issue if you use 170-175 but if you like long cranks and don't want to use the adapters...
The Felt looks pretty sweet - standard brake and BB, internal cables (4 or 5% according to Felt), that chainstay brake (another 4 or 5%), the fork in front of the headtube thing (another 4 or 5%, a la Look KG something or another from 10 years ago, more recently seen on BMC's TT bikes).
There is a fork out there that fairs the front brake - saw some Interbike pics of it. I have to imagine that is more significant than protecting the rear brake from air (after it hits all sorts of stuff getting there). I don't recall the fork. I think fairing the front brake is more important than the fork shrouding the headtube business simply because the brake is so complex but the headtube is already sort of "aerodynamicized" by having appropriate tubing behind it. You can tape your number there in a fairing kind of way if it's too round for your liking.
Finally Zinn or someone discussed the fork with the two sets of blades (double bladed?) on Velonews somewhere. Cadel Evans uses one. Apparently it reduces the amount of air being kicked up by the front wheel (and being thrown forward - against your direction of travel). Sort of similar to aero gains found by diverting wheelwell air in cars - it's not the air that the car is hitting, it's air that the vehicle itself is moving around. Reduce the wheel's air resistance and you reduce yours.
So, if I was a TT bike, I'd want me to have the double fork blades, the faired front brake, internal cables, shielded rear brake, rear wheel tucked in, and the standard narrow aero tube profile for all the tubes.
And then the disk wheel, the 808 or tri front wheel, nice aero bars, a solid big ring, and my rider to have shoe covers, aero helmet with glasses, Lance buzzcut...
Oh and a camelbak (mounted high up on your back to fair your head a bit) as installing a bottle will ruin all that aero you just bought. And use tape to hold your number on (and/or Super 77 adhesive).
not a TT guy but I wish I was,
cdr
Anyway, on the bike side of things...
Slice is limited to the SI cranks - max 175mm crank from what I can tell, although the SRMs are cheaper for SI, at least on eBay. Not an issue if you use 170-175 but if you like long cranks and don't want to use the adapters...
The Felt looks pretty sweet - standard brake and BB, internal cables (4 or 5% according to Felt), that chainstay brake (another 4 or 5%), the fork in front of the headtube thing (another 4 or 5%, a la Look KG something or another from 10 years ago, more recently seen on BMC's TT bikes).
There is a fork out there that fairs the front brake - saw some Interbike pics of it. I have to imagine that is more significant than protecting the rear brake from air (after it hits all sorts of stuff getting there). I don't recall the fork. I think fairing the front brake is more important than the fork shrouding the headtube business simply because the brake is so complex but the headtube is already sort of "aerodynamicized" by having appropriate tubing behind it. You can tape your number there in a fairing kind of way if it's too round for your liking.
Finally Zinn or someone discussed the fork with the two sets of blades (double bladed?) on Velonews somewhere. Cadel Evans uses one. Apparently it reduces the amount of air being kicked up by the front wheel (and being thrown forward - against your direction of travel). Sort of similar to aero gains found by diverting wheelwell air in cars - it's not the air that the car is hitting, it's air that the vehicle itself is moving around. Reduce the wheel's air resistance and you reduce yours.
So, if I was a TT bike, I'd want me to have the double fork blades, the faired front brake, internal cables, shielded rear brake, rear wheel tucked in, and the standard narrow aero tube profile for all the tubes.
And then the disk wheel, the 808 or tri front wheel, nice aero bars, a solid big ring, and my rider to have shoe covers, aero helmet with glasses, Lance buzzcut...
Oh and a camelbak (mounted high up on your back to fair your head a bit) as installing a bottle will ruin all that aero you just bought. And use tape to hold your number on (and/or Super 77 adhesive).
not a TT guy but I wish I was,
cdr
11-02-07, 04:36 PM
#10
Mitcholo
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IIRC, the most aerodynamic fork you can get is the old Schwinn varsity fork. Do it.
11-02-07, 07:00 PM
#11
Peloton Shelter Dog
Camelbak? You told him to get a Camelbak?
Last edited by patentcad; 11-03-07 at 11:18 AM.
11-03-07, 08:00 AM
#12
Senior Member
lol
I tried one but hated drinking from it. Recently bought another one to hold my helmet cam stuff and whenever something happens around me I automatically draw the yells - "Hey CamelBak..."
I know, it's sad. But think about that bottle catching all that air.
cdr
I tried one but hated drinking from it. Recently bought another one to hold my helmet cam stuff and whenever something happens around me I automatically draw the yells - "Hey CamelBak..."
I know, it's sad. But think about that bottle catching all that air.
cdr
11-03-07, 11:44 AM
#13
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lol
I tried one but hated drinking from it. Recently bought another one to hold my helmet cam stuff and whenever something happens around me I automatically draw the yells - "Hey CamelBak..."
I know, it's sad. But think about that bottle catching all that air.
cdr
I tried one but hated drinking from it. Recently bought another one to hold my helmet cam stuff and whenever something happens around me I automatically draw the yells - "Hey CamelBak..."
I know, it's sad. But think about that bottle catching all that air.
cdr
11-03-07, 02:20 PM
#14
Peloton Shelter Dog
11-05-07, 03:12 AM
#15
Not obese just overweight
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The Bontraqer is cheaper than the Arundel and has the little dimples.
Cervélos are stiffer, stronger, made by engineers with advanced knowledge of aerodynamics (unlike the other makers you mentioned), and have way more sexy.
Cervélos are stiffer, stronger, made by engineers with advanced knowledge of aerodynamics (unlike the other makers you mentioned), and have way more sexy.
__________________
Joe
Veho difficilis, ago facilis
Joe
Veho difficilis, ago facilis
11-05-07, 05:52 AM
#16
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I know that all the aero in the world won't help if you're sitting wrong but I figure you got that bit figured out. A good position is worth a lot of aero dollars. In my previous life I fitted a guy using a Look Ergo stem on his steel winter beater bike and he went on to win some huge international Masters stage race in South America somewhere - he had a disk, trispoke, and aero bars, but otherwise the bike was a piece of junk. Another guy I fit was ranked top 10 in the country for duathletes (bike leg) - his aero equipment consisted of a HED disk wheel, a trispoke, and TT bars (on an otherwise stock lugged and glued Giant carbon bike with 105).
Anyway, on the bike side of things...
Slice is limited to the SI cranks - max 175mm crank from what I can tell, although the SRMs are cheaper for SI, at least on eBay. Not an issue if you use 170-175 but if you like long cranks and don't want to use the adapters...
The Felt looks pretty sweet - standard brake and BB, internal cables (4 or 5% according to Felt), that chainstay brake (another 4 or 5%), the fork in front of the headtube thing (another 4 or 5%, a la Look KG something or another from 10 years ago, more recently seen on BMC's TT bikes).
There is a fork out there that fairs the front brake - saw some Interbike pics of it. I have to imagine that is more significant than protecting the rear brake from air (after it hits all sorts of stuff getting there). I don't recall the fork. I think fairing the front brake is more important than the fork shrouding the headtube business simply because the brake is so complex but the headtube is already sort of "aerodynamicized" by having appropriate tubing behind it. You can tape your number there in a fairing kind of way if it's too round for your liking.
Finally Zinn or someone discussed the fork with the two sets of blades (double bladed?) on Velonews somewhere. Cadel Evans uses one. Apparently it reduces the amount of air being kicked up by the front wheel (and being thrown forward - against your direction of travel). Sort of similar to aero gains found by diverting wheelwell air in cars - it's not the air that the car is hitting, it's air that the vehicle itself is moving around. Reduce the wheel's air resistance and you reduce yours.
So, if I was a TT bike, I'd want me to have the double fork blades, the faired front brake, internal cables, shielded rear brake, rear wheel tucked in, and the standard narrow aero tube profile for all the tubes.
And then the disk wheel, the 808 or tri front wheel, nice aero bars, a solid big ring, and my rider to have shoe covers, aero helmet with glasses, Lance buzzcut...
Oh and a camelbak (mounted high up on your back to fair your head a bit) as installing a bottle will ruin all that aero you just bought. And use tape to hold your number on (and/or Super 77 adhesive).
not a TT guy but I wish I was,
cdr
Anyway, on the bike side of things...
Slice is limited to the SI cranks - max 175mm crank from what I can tell, although the SRMs are cheaper for SI, at least on eBay. Not an issue if you use 170-175 but if you like long cranks and don't want to use the adapters...
The Felt looks pretty sweet - standard brake and BB, internal cables (4 or 5% according to Felt), that chainstay brake (another 4 or 5%), the fork in front of the headtube thing (another 4 or 5%, a la Look KG something or another from 10 years ago, more recently seen on BMC's TT bikes).
There is a fork out there that fairs the front brake - saw some Interbike pics of it. I have to imagine that is more significant than protecting the rear brake from air (after it hits all sorts of stuff getting there). I don't recall the fork. I think fairing the front brake is more important than the fork shrouding the headtube business simply because the brake is so complex but the headtube is already sort of "aerodynamicized" by having appropriate tubing behind it. You can tape your number there in a fairing kind of way if it's too round for your liking.
Finally Zinn or someone discussed the fork with the two sets of blades (double bladed?) on Velonews somewhere. Cadel Evans uses one. Apparently it reduces the amount of air being kicked up by the front wheel (and being thrown forward - against your direction of travel). Sort of similar to aero gains found by diverting wheelwell air in cars - it's not the air that the car is hitting, it's air that the vehicle itself is moving around. Reduce the wheel's air resistance and you reduce yours.
So, if I was a TT bike, I'd want me to have the double fork blades, the faired front brake, internal cables, shielded rear brake, rear wheel tucked in, and the standard narrow aero tube profile for all the tubes.
And then the disk wheel, the 808 or tri front wheel, nice aero bars, a solid big ring, and my rider to have shoe covers, aero helmet with glasses, Lance buzzcut...
Oh and a camelbak (mounted high up on your back to fair your head a bit) as installing a bottle will ruin all that aero you just bought. And use tape to hold your number on (and/or Super 77 adhesive).
not a TT guy but I wish I was,
cdr
so 4 blades total?
11-05-07, 07:49 PM
#17
raodmaster shaman
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sounds like the new jamis. I saw a pic of it in this month's bicycling (not yet up on their site). It had everything except the 4 bladed fork, but I don't quite know what that is anyway...
11-05-07, 09:07 PM
#18
Ink-Stained Wretch
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So lets see...
UCI legal the Felt DA is said to be the fastest UCI legal frame out there. That comes from manufacturers of non-legal frames who can still make faster frames...
Its pretty swanky only non standard part is its fork.
After that...things get muddled. Dale's new one is no nonesense with no fancy stuff cept the cranks (and they're good cranks). Spec you get the weird ass brake setup but I know wind-tunnel boy Mark Cody had a serious hand in the design...so it might be worth it. Also a chance to get a BB30 crankset. And 180 cranks are going to be on the market from other manufacturers...
UCI legal the Felt DA is said to be the fastest UCI legal frame out there. That comes from manufacturers of non-legal frames who can still make faster frames...
Its pretty swanky only non standard part is its fork.
After that...things get muddled. Dale's new one is no nonesense with no fancy stuff cept the cranks (and they're good cranks). Spec you get the weird ass brake setup but I know wind-tunnel boy Mark Cody had a serious hand in the design...so it might be worth it. Also a chance to get a BB30 crankset. And 180 cranks are going to be on the market from other manufacturers...
11-05-07, 09:23 PM
#19
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Cadel Evans-Predictor Lotto consolidated his 2nd overall position at the TT stage on Saturday from Cognac to Angouleme in addition to reducing his time difference from the yellow jersey Contador by almost 1.30min riding his Ridley TT bike equipped with Oval's A900 JetStream Aero fork! The 23 second gap to Contador is the Tour's second smallest differential between winner and runner-up ever. Cadel was also able to hold off the hard charging, stage winner Levi Leipheimer, by a narrow 8 seconds.
The A900 JetStream fork has won 5 Grand Tours in the past five years and was recently validated by MIT to save 20 to 30% on the drag created by the front wheel versus the best single blade fork design.
get Fit to Fly !
The A900 JetStream fork has won 5 Grand Tours in the past five years and was recently validated by MIT to save 20 to 30% on the drag created by the front wheel versus the best single blade fork design.
get Fit to Fly !
11-06-07, 12:19 PM
#20
everyone has a plan...
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This may be one of the rare instances where BF actually saves someone money. i think i may keep what i have and just go for this super fork. I read Zinn's analysis when it came out and have been watching it from afar- however it may be worth diving into.
but do they really need the split airfoils on the TT bars? that, to me just looks like carrying the concept too far and turning it into a gimmick.
and back to the original question... is it really necessary to make such outlandish looking TT bikes? or is more for the eye/mind?
but do they really need the split airfoils on the TT bars? that, to me just looks like carrying the concept too far and turning it into a gimmick.
and back to the original question... is it really necessary to make such outlandish looking TT bikes? or is more for the eye/mind?
