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  1. #1
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    stop my whining or jump ship?

    Hey guys had a question. Ive been riding with my local team for 1 season and have made a handful of friends. Had a good year and am looking forward to the next season...well its time to order the new kits and just like last year there full price. My team doesnt offer very much in the way of comp'ing for races or reduced kits etc.

    Ive made a few friends on other teams in the area and have been offered to join a team with nice benefits such as traveling compensation, race fee compensation, and they offer multiple free kits for the team members. Im sorely tempted to jump ship for these reasons...

    was wondering what the general racing public thoughts are? Was curious how other teams worked?

    thx
    baw

  2. #2
    Cat WTF
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    In my opinion, lower category riders shouldn't be "comp'ed". Lower meaning south of cat 2. Unless it's a very small team and the budget can allow reimbursement.

    It may not be the team setting the kit price, have you looked into that?

  3. #3
    i got nothing. Crash716's Avatar
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    what if your on an all CAT 4/5 team... and noone is a CAT1-3...who should get the free stuff then?
    14 days...

  4. #4
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    College kids, Juniors, and poor people.

    If you're a Cat 2 trying to make a go of the pro world, then you get more. Anyone else: 10% off at the bike shop. Nothing more.
    Last edited by EventServices; 12-03-07 at 03:13 PM. Reason: clarity

  5. #5
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    I would be completely happy on your current team if I had teammates to race with who were willing to cooperate on race day. I couldn't care less about discounts on crap I don't need. I get 20% off coupons from Performance that I can use for chains, tires, and cassettes, as needed.

    I'd be happy with my own black bibs and a $60 team jersey.

    I just want someone to stand beside in battle.

  6. #6
    i got nothing. Crash716's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    I would be completely happy on your current team if I had teammates to race with who were willing to cooperate on race day. I couldn't care less about discounts on crap I don't need. I get 20% off coupons from Performance that I can use for chains, tires, and cassettes, as needed.

    I'd be happy with my own black bibs and a $60 team jersey.

    I just want someone to stand beside in battle.
    true...and i have that going for me in a CAT 4-5 team i am on...there will be to a degree team orders..and knowing all the guys well we should have allot of fun with it...
    14 days...

  7. #7
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    Can you define what constitutes full price (i.e. jersey or bib short cost?).

    Champion Sports will sell you a jersey for $45 plus shipping, about $50 total.
    Verge Sports, for a 3 color, will run a bit more - $68 for a small order, with extra for some other stuff, usually they give you a break, so call it $68 even with the extras. Not sure about shipping.
    Even if the team ordered the same looking gear from the two different companies and sold it at "cost", the "price" would be different to the end user.

    The difference? My Champion stuff I bought in the last two years is wrecked. My Verge stuff from 5 years ago is fine - in fact I wear the Verge stuff regularly since my CS bibs ripped at some bib seams, my SS jerseys ripped at seams, and my knickers bib area is also ripping. The only thing that hasn't ripped is the jacket. And before you crack the fat jokes, they're the same size as the Verge stuff. But believe me, when I first put the stuff on and it disintegrated on me, I thought "wtf I didn't gain that much weight".

    Have you considered helping out your current team? Help with the team clothing order or promote a race or something? Figure out why the team needs to charge "full price" for their kit. See what goes into trying to organize a team, handle various racer's requests for reimbursement or whatnot. Or worse, go after a fellow racer for not paying for the $500 in team gear they picked up but haven't paid for. It's amazing what slackers some of those really nice riders end up being.

    Until you've done all that, I'd stick with whatever friendly team you seem to have found. Join a team for the racers, not for the shwag. You want schwag? Ask for stuff you can't really ever get like a pass through the shop to Interbike. And bring a big backpack for schwag in Sept, and cash for all the race DVDs you could ever want (and socks and whoever else sells stuff at the show without checking if you have an account). But from the team? I wouldn't worry about it too much.

    Personally I don't think even Cat 2s should be comp'ed. I think a racer should be comp'ed only if they can generate as much or more revenue to the comping agent. In other words, if a racer gets $1000 in goods from a sponsor, it's because the racer can generate the team $1000 in net profit, either from tv or newspaper appearances (they have a definitive value per second or per column inch), in additional sales (need $2-3k of sales to cover $1k in clothing), or in bringing in additional customers to the sponsor (equal to spending $1000 for direct mail coupons or an ad in a local paper). Can the racer get 100,000 eyeballs a day on the sponsor's name? Well, then they could justify asking for $1000. If not, then not.

    And if the flip off a motorist or run a light... well, what's negative publicity cost?

    If it sounds pro it's because it is. If you don't generate your sponsors money, don't ask for any. Gear, equipment, it costs a bit less (say 40% below the retail value, maybe 60-80% if they get it at employee/team price), but it still costs the sponsors money.

    I joke that my kit cost me about $4000 because that's what I shelled out to buy it all - my teammates paid me for whatever they wanted, and since I ordered extra, I'm probably sitting on $2k worth of team clothing.

    Um, hey, you want to buy a kit

    The good thing is that I have a few extra jerseys which don't have holes in them.

    If you make your sponsor money or you help run the team or you put a lot of sweat equity into the team and they still don't comp you, then you go elsewhere.

    been on both sides of the sponsor table,
    cdr
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  8. #8
    Killing Rabbits
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    On our team everybody (all cats) get:
    15% off at the shop
    All race fees
    Travel and accommodations to select major events
    Guidance from the full-time coach/DS (salaried)
    Access to team owned equipment (zipps, ergometer, computrainers)
    Clothes are still full cost. However, cost is still better than retail.

    Those under 21 may receive financial assistance (~3000/year)
    The shop provides steep equipment deals to a select few.

    I know we have it good and I never expected any of it when I joined. I won’t say how much money the team has but it’s way more than I ever thought possible for a local team/club to have. God bless gamblers and casino revenues…

  9. #9
    nom nom nom Frunkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
    On our team everybody (all cats) get:
    15% off at the shop
    All race fees
    Travel and accommodations to select major events
    Guidance from the full-time coach/DS (salaried)
    Access to team owned equipment (zipps, ergometer, computrainers)
    Clothes are still full cost. However, cost is still better than retail.

    Those under 21 may receive financial assistance (~3000/year)
    The shop provides steep equipment deals to a select few.

    I know we have it good and I never expected any of it when I joined. I won’t say how much money the team has but it’s way more than I ever thought possible for a local team/club to have. God bless gamblers and casino revenues…
    HOLY ****!
    You've got it made!

  10. #10
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Damn, I'm a Cat2 and all I MIGHT be getting is some free kit. And I'm happy with that. I decided not to race for a team that would have given me a bike/kit/helmet/shoes/the works in order to race for this team. And I'm thinking it's going to be well worth it.

    I've never heard of Cat4/5 racers getting free kit, travel fees, or race fees comp'd. Honestly, I don't see the point in it. If the shop does that, what do they give their Elite riders? Weekly hookers and a kilo of blow?

    They can't give any sort of discount on bikes/parts then, otherwise they wouldn't be making any money off of the people in their club...?
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  11. #11
    Acquiring new target.... carlfreddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    I've never heard of Cat4/5 racers getting free kit, travel fees, or race fees comp'd. Honestly, I don't see the point in it. If the shop does that, what do they give their Elite riders? Weekly hookers and a kilo of blow?
    +1

    I'll start complaining about having to pay for a team kit (although my team gets it cost, but I still pay) and parts/bikes when my performance indicates that I deserve to be floated $5k+ worth of gear. Until then, I'll happily pump money back into my club.
    There are only 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    I would be completely happy on your current team if I had teammates to race with who were willing to cooperate on race day. I couldn't care less about discounts on crap I don't need. I get 20% off coupons from Performance that I can use for chains, tires, and cassettes, as needed.

    I'd be happy with my own black bibs and a $60 team jersey.

    I just want someone to stand beside in battle.
    Well said. BAW - read this post, and I'd add to it that you should race on the team that is most consistent with your goals as a racer.

  13. #13
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Another +1 on Waterrockets advice. The reason to join a team is for teammates. People to work tactics with, to carpool to the start, maybe even to train with. It's more important to me that my team has people who live near me and race the same events as me. If the cost of a kit was my main motivation, I'd ride unattached and wear my plain jersey.

  14. #14
    seppomadness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    Weekly hookers and a kilo of blow?
    Hey lets not drag Team CSC into this ok?

  15. #15
    elitist jerk daytonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
    Another +1 on Waterrockets advice. The reason to join a team is for teammates. People to work tactics with, to carpool to the start, maybe even to train with. It's more important to me that my team has people who live near me and race the same events as me. If the cost of a kit was my main motivation, I'd ride unattached and wear my plain jersey.
    Couldn't of said it better.
    I feel like a soiled kleenex dropped in the gutter in the red-light district of Paris.

  16. #16
    Sensible shoes. CastIron's Avatar
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    I'm UA and think you're whining. If the cost of the kit is bugging you, find a new sport.
    Mike
    Quote Originally Posted by cedricbosch View Post
    It looks silly when you have quotes from other forum members in your signature. Nobody on this forum is that funny.
    Quote Originally Posted by cedricbosch View Post
    Why am I in your signature.

  17. #17
    Burning Matches. ElJamoquio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    Weekly hookers and a kilo of blow
    So finally, the secret has been revealed. NOW I know why everyone wants to get to Cat 2.
    Reacting is mind candy; it requires no thought. Thinking is tedious.

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  18. #18
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    Weekly hookers and a kilo of blow?
    I only need 25 points to upgrade, right? Maybe I'll race category in '08

  19. #19
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElJamoquio View Post
    So finally, the secret has been revealed. NOW I know why everyone wants to get to Cat 2.
    Yeah, and just imagine what happens when you WIN a race. Oh man. It makes the stories about Cipo sound tame in comparison.

    Haha.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  20. #20
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    Damn, I'm a Cat2 and all I MIGHT be getting is some free kit. And I'm happy with that. I decided not to race for a team that would have given me a bike/kit/helmet/shoes/the works in order to race for this team. And I'm thinking it's going to be well worth it.

    I've never heard of Cat4/5 racers getting free kit, travel fees, or race fees comp'd. Honestly, I don't see the point in it. If the shop does that, what do they give their Elite riders? Weekly hookers and a kilo of blow?

    They can't give any sort of discount on bikes/parts then, otherwise they wouldn't be making any money off of the people in their club...?
    The shop doesn’t fund us much at all. All they do is the % discounts and pad the prize pool of our races. Ok, they also provide equipment for a few guys but that is more about their relationship with the shop -and their elite abilities- than it is the team affiliation. As for lower cat riders getting fees paid it’s really a small amount of money for most. There aren’t many races around here, and the training race fee is trivial, so if a lower cat rider does 3 or so “expensive” events plus a half dozen training races it costs the team very little while developing riders and growing the club. Everyone pays 40 for dues and many don’t race…

    “Free travel” is shared hotel rooms and a per mile rebate for gas when car-pooling large distances.

    Funding for juniors is one of the reasons we get the casino budget at all. About a quarter of the money has to go directly to developing junior athletes; we can pay the coach/ director sportif extraordinaire out of that budget. The rest we can spend on team equipment, some travel (upon approval), fees, etc. The equipment can be used by anyone but in scheduling conflicts the better man gets the stuff. However, the good guys have their own stuff….

    Lastly, having team perks doesn’t mean you don’t have good teammates; it’s not like these things are exclusive.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CastIron View Post
    I'm UA and think you're whining. If the cost of the kit is bugging you, find a new sport.
    LoL thanks for the advice...what the hell is UA? Underage ROFL...get back to me when you have 4 kids and a mortgage. And yes the "new" team is a stronger team but after tonights meeting I realized I like the blokes I race with and will stick around...but damn helping out with the race fee's would have been nice.

  22. #22
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Never stop whining, particularly on BF.

    That is all.

  23. #23
    Sensible shoes. CastIron's Avatar
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    UA = Un Attached. Ever notice that in the race results under team? Ever even seen race results?
    Mike
    Quote Originally Posted by cedricbosch View Post
    It looks silly when you have quotes from other forum members in your signature. Nobody on this forum is that funny.
    Quote Originally Posted by cedricbosch View Post
    Why am I in your signature.

  24. #24
    Senior Member BigSean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bayareawheeler View Post
    LoL thanks for the advice...what the hell is UA? Underage ROFL...get back to me when you have 4 kids and a mortgage. And yes the "new" team is a stronger team but after tonights meeting I realized I like the blokes I race with and will stick around...but damn helping out with the race fee's would have been nice.
    Im also in the Bay Area. Our team has free kits for those that cant afford them. They also may comp some kits to those that put in extra time working on club stuff or events. The kids stuff is free to them.
    Race Fee's are reimbursed annually at a rate of $10 per event
    Travel and accomodations are reimbursed by a % of cost
    The Elite racers get free bikes and equiptment
    Us mere mortals get 15% off at the local shop
    There are also group buys of sponsor products sometimes 20% sometimes it may be 60% off

    I didnt know any of that when I joined. I joined the team because they are fun to ride with. They help motivate me, and I learn from them. The team has alot of history in this area and that is why I chose them.

  25. #25
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    I'd just go for the team with the best looking kit. Here's why:

    Climbing test in full CSC kit:
    Duration: 12:12 (12:16)
    Work: 235 kJ
    TSS: 21.7 (intensity factor 1.034)
    Norm Power: 351

    Climbing test in jean cut offs and old Lynard Skynard T-Shirt:
    Duration: 12:12 (12:16)
    Norm Power: 311

    It's pretty clear that looking cool is worth a bit more than 10% NP. Considering the amount of money spent on tiny improvements, it's clear that paying for your kits is a great power/cost value, if they are eye candy.

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