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  1. #1
    Cat WTF
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    Categories and USA Cycling

    http://teamcolumbus.org/flyers/torelli_08.pdf

    The local promoter has a series for next year and instead of USA Cycling categories, he is doing this:

    Cat A = Elite riders
    Cat B = Regional and Local riders
    Cat C = Local and Beginner riders
    Cat D = Beginners

    He says the results will be submitted to USA Cycling. But I'm not sure how they'll deal with the results

    I'm assuming it will work out where A=1/2/3, B=3, C=4 and D=5 - but this opens the door up for some serious sandbagging.

    Does anyone else out there race non-USA Cycling categories where you don't get a specific license (that rules out ABR)?

  2. #2
    Aut Vincere Aut Mori Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    It'd make sense to have the As be 1/2/3 Bs be 3/4 Cs be 4/5 and Ds be 5.

    It seems like the majority of frequent racers are 3s and 4s, so catering to them would allow the promoter to collect two race fees per race from a lot of guys. I know if I'm driving somewhere, and it's not an "A" priority race I'll always try to do a 1/2/3 and a 3/4 race. It also gives 3s, 4s and 5s a chance to race with guys a category or two higher without upgrading.

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    In MABRA, training races are structured this way, but they aren't usable for upgrade points aside from the 5->4 experiential upgrade.

    Looks like a great event for new racers and beginners, as well as 3s looking to stretch their legs with the bigger boys, but also seems that trying to use results from this series for upgrade points will be problematic.

  4. #4
    Aut Vincere Aut Mori Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    In MABRA, training races are structured this way, but they aren't usable for upgrade points aside from the 5->4 experiential upgrade.

    Looks like a great event for new racers and beginners, as well as 3s looking to stretch their legs with the bigger boys, but also seems that trying to use results from this series for upgrade points will be problematic.
    The Georgia Cup races are structured as I mentioned above, except that there are no pure CAT-5 races. As they are the biggest race series in the Southeast, I haven't heard of any problems with using those races for upgrade points.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    Looks like a great event for new racers and beginners, as well as 3s looking to stretch their legs with the bigger boys, but also seems that trying to use results from this series for upgrade points will be problematic.


    Last year his categories were 1/2/3, 3/4 and 4/5. He's going from three races for the men to four.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    The Georgia Cup races are structured as I mentioned above, except that there are no pure CAT-5 races. As they are the biggest race series in the Southeast, I haven't heard of any problems with using those races for upgrade points.

    For the GA cup you have CAT 4/5 and 4. If you race 4/5 and are a 4 you cant earn GA Cup points. Other than that points are points here.

    *pretty sure thats how it works*

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    doesn't matter what results are submitted to usa cycling, if he grades the races that
    way the results will not matter to your license. usa cycling only recognizes official events

    burn your racing miles at an official event, not something sideways. they are trying to sidestep
    the rules and mainly insurance by doing this.

  8. #8
    elitist jerk daytonian's Avatar
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    Team Columbus never reported results under UCI anyway, didn't use pacecars, no yellow rule, and never traffic guards at intersections. He's running organized fast group rides.
    I feel like a soiled kleenex dropped in the gutter in the red-light district of Paris.

  9. #9
    ....gets the cheese Second Mouse's Avatar
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    Here are the criteria for one of the local crit series:

    Categories/Flites
    A Flite racers are USCF Pro, Cat 1, and Cat 2 racers as well as the top 15 Cat 3 riders from the previous season. NORBA Expert and Pro riders may race in the A flite.
    You must have a USCF License to race A flite!

    B flite racers are USCF Cat 3, Cat 4, and all Cat 4 riders in the top 10 from the previous years C flite. NORBA Expert and Sport riders can also race in the B flite.
    You must have a USCF License to race B flite!

    C flite racers are USCF Cat 5 racers and anyone else who wants to come out (beginners).

  10. #10
    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    Yep, he's trying to make more money by sidestepping the USA rules. I bet his fees go up too.

    There are already plenty of people around here not going to his races. I have a feeling it just increased.

    _EDIT_

    So, I am a 3 but really only race locally, so I can race B or C depending on what I feel like?

    These races don't follow USAC, but you have to buy a USAC card. How does that work?
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  11. #11
    Aut Vincere Aut Mori Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Guys, it's not against the rules:

    1H3. Mixing of Classes. An organizer may offer races for combined classifications and categories but the categories in a given race must be the same for all age groups. However, youth races may include only one-day licensees younger than 10 and possibly juniors as specified in Rule 1H1. All riders shall race the same distance unless there is a distance handicapped start for separate groupings of riders.

  12. #12
    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    But does it still count as a USAC upgradeable race since it doesn't follow the 1/2/3/4/5 categories? So, I am a 3, if I race in the C's and win, then race in the B's and win what counts for upgrade points? And what does USAC observe as my official category, C or B?

    I realize you don't know for sure, but just a general question of what could happen. I have never raced any cats like this.(cross, but I don't think one race has been reported this year)

    I guess my heartache is how do you make sure that sandbagging isn't rampant. I mean Elite is pretty clear. But Regional/local/beginner can get distorted. C4E's first post lines up how I think they should be divided, but if your license says one thing, cat 4 for example, and there is nothing that says Cat 4 on the registration flyer that just opens it to self seeding. I'm going through this right now in cross. There's a guy that has been a C for 4 years, but he maintains he's not won a bunch of races and gets shelled in the B's, so he's still a beginner.

    I guess we'll see next year.
    Last edited by cslone; 12-07-07 at 05:55 PM.
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  13. #13
    Royal Grand Exalted Pooba smoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cslone View Post
    Yep, he's trying to make more money by sidestepping the USA rules. I bet his fees go up too.

    There are already plenty of people around here not going to his races. I have a feeling it just increased.

    _EDIT_

    So, I am a 3 but really only race locally, so I can race B or C depending on what I feel like?

    These races don't follow USAC, but you have to buy a USAC card. How does that work?
    i'm trying to make sense of this, too. i don't see why we have to have a USAC membership to race in this. and i'd like to see if i can get a few upgrade points. so i'm thinking these races may just be for fun/training, but aren't really gonna figure on my schedule. of course, it's so damn cold here in early spring i probably won't go to any of these anyway
    'In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, "Make us your slaves, but feed us." '

    -Fyodor Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor

  14. #14
    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    Guys, it's not against the rules:

    1H3. Mixing of Classes. An organizer may offer races for combined classifications and categories but the categories in a given race must be the same for all age groups. However, youth races may include only one-day licensees younger than 10 and possibly juniors as specified in Rule 1H1. All riders shall race the same distance unless there is a distance handicapped start for separate groupings of riders.
    Okay, this is what I found. The issue is not mixing, because he's always ran 1/2/3, 3/4, 4/5 races. It's the change to A/B/C/D that's weird.

    7.5 Categories of Riders.
    7.5.1 All riders shall be assigned to one of the following categories for road racing and for track racing: 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 for men and 4, 3, 2, and 1 for women, with smaller numbers representing increasing rider proficiency and ability. For cyclocross, all riders shall be assigned to one of the following categories: 4,3,2 or 1.
    So wouldn't that mean that he's not following the rules and those races won't "count" to USAC?
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  15. #15
    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smoke View Post
    i'm trying to make sense of this, too. i don't see why we have to have a USAC membership to race in this. and i'd like to see if i can get a few upgrade points. so i'm thinking these races may just be for fun/training, but aren't really gonna figure on my schedule. of course, it's so damn cold here in early spring i probably won't go to any of these anyway

    Well if you want upgrade poitns, you'll need a license to USAC. But Tym also runs a crit and cross series too, so these races will extend to all year.

    Maybe this isn't a big deal, but change weirds me out.
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  16. #16
    Royal Grand Exalted Pooba smoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cslone View Post
    Well if you want upgrade poitns, you'll need a license to USAC. But Tym also runs a crit and cross series too, so these races will extend to all year.

    Maybe this isn't a big deal, but change weirds me out.
    but if these categories are something that USAC won't recognize, and therefore will not award any points for these races, why do i have to be a member? it's a rhetorical question; i've already got my license for next year. i simply don't see what having the membership does for you in these races if they won't be recognized

    change for change's sake. the only constant is change. go change something today. change is good
    'In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, "Make us your slaves, but feed us." '

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  17. #17
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    That's how our training crits are organized (sort of). We have 5s/m35+4s, 3s/4s, then Open. Only the 5s get any USAC finishes though.

  18. #18
    wavylines
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    It's probably a typo, but according to the flyer, if you pre-reg, the races are only $5.
    At least I offer my own disaster.

  19. #19
    elitist jerk daytonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    That's how our training crits are organized (sort of). We have 5s/m35+4s, 3s/4s, then Open. Only the 5s get any USAC finishes though.
    We have those every week in Dayton as well.
    This guy runs an entire spring series (10 RR's), a 6-7 stage race, and ohio state RR championship, TT, and crit championship. Not to mention a cross series. The reason it sucks is ohio valley racing who put on an equal amount of well run races around in the past is not doing it this year so we're like does this count or not.
    I feel like a soiled kleenex dropped in the gutter in the red-light district of Paris.

  20. #20
    abandoning fly:yes/land:no's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonian View Post
    We have those every week in Dayton as well.
    This guy runs an entire spring series (10 RR's), a 6-7 stage race, and ohio state RR championship, TT, and crit championship. Not to mention a cross series. The reason it sucks is ohio valley racing who put on an equal amount of well run races around in the past is not doing it this year so we're like does this count or not.
    hey all! i sent an email to kirk, this is what he said:

    "Bill,
    Thanks for the inquiry, it brings up a very good question.

    If I had to take a guess and use information from past races promoted by
    Team Columbus, I would suspect A=1,2,3; B=3,4; C=4,5 and D=5 for the sake
    of upgrade points. Keep in mind, most Team Columbus events do not meet the
    minimum distance and field size for upgrade purposes. Full results from
    Team Columbus races are rarely tallied, making it difficult for the upgrade
    coordinator to determine whether the field sizes have been met, and whether
    the distribution of categories within a particular race is sufficient to be
    used for upgrade purposes (i.e. a 50 rider field with 45 Cat Four and 5 Cat
    Threes is not really sufficient for that race to be used for a Cat Three
    looking to upgrade).

    If you inquiry was in reference to the USA Cycling ranking points, Team
    Columbus never submits results to USAC and therefore are never included.

    Let me know if you have any further questions.

    Regards,

    Kirk Albers
    Ohio Cycling Association"

    so, i am thinking, maybe we could consider asking tym why he is doing it this way this year and see if he could change it back. just a thought. hope this helps, guys!

  21. #21
    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonian View Post
    We have those every week in Dayton as well.
    This guy runs an entire spring series (10 RR's), a 6-7 stage race, and ohio state RR championship, TT, and crit championship. Not to mention a cross series. The reason it sucks is ohio valley racing who put on an equal amount of well run races around in the past is not doing it this year so we're like does this count or not.
    Some of the local teams are supposed to be taking over the OVR series, along with a Crit Champ series. I'll get you guys more info when I get it.
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  22. #22
    wavylines
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    Quote Originally Posted by cslone View Post
    Some of the local teams are supposed to be taking over the OVR series, along with a Crit Champ series. I'll get you guys more info when I get it.
    I heard rumors about a Jan 10 meeting to discuss.
    At least I offer my own disaster.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by fly:yes/land:no View Post
    "Bill,
    Thanks for the inquiry, it brings up a very good question.

    ... Full results from Team Columbus races are rarely tallied, making it difficult for the upgrade
    coordinator to determine whether the field sizes have been met, and whether
    the distribution of categories within a particular race is sufficient to be
    used for upgrade purposes (i.e. a 50 rider field with 45 Cat Four and 5 Cat
    Threes is not really sufficient for that race to be used for a Cat Three
    looking to upgrade).
    This is bizarre. Start sheets are used to determine field sizes for upgrades and the distribution of riders is irrelevant. As long as a race is open to all Cat 3's it doesn't matter if the field is five cat 3's and 45 Cat 4's or the other way around.

  24. #24
    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    That's the last I heard too. I seem to remember Dayton, 7 Hills, Project Velo and maybe Anthem?
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  25. #25
    abandoning fly:yes/land:no's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curveship View Post
    I heard rumors about a Jan 10 meeting to discuss.
    council of elrond!


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