MDcatV

I'm posting this in response to the wind tunnel thread that was being hijacked, and to combat boring threads filled with TSS/NP/IF/CTL, and other powermeter acronyms.

A forum member here is often accused of sandbagging. I say sandbag away if that's your thing and arent getting hit with the mandatory upgrade by the local upgrade coordinator. Better competition forces me to be better, the team I'm on to be better, and makes strategy and tactics more necessary, which is what I find to be the most fun part of racing. Discuss.

Lithuania

sandbagging is when you are dominating a lower category instead of upgrading.

Does it bother me? Not really because if people are sandbagging in my division its only going to make it easier once I upgrade out of that cat.

I think sandbaggers are funny though and they deserve any grief they get.

In cross some dude set up a site (crossresults.com) that even singles out sandbaggers. I love it

bdcheung

If someone is achieving great results in my category, and the powers that be haven't forced him to upgrade, then my problem isn't with the individual but with the system.

waterrockets 

I only upgraded to 3s before I burned out, and now I just race M35 and some 3s, but won't ever get enough points to upgrade. So, I don't have a lot of experience dealing with sandbaggers.

There were 5 solid sandbaggers in the 4s when I was moving up. I still got my upgrade in (I think) six Cat 4 races. Just swim through them and keep going. Knowing who they are is usually enough to beat them if you play it right.

In M35+, all the strong guys feel a little like sandbaggers. There's a Cat 2 around here who wins a couple crits every year, and he just turned 35. He won his first M35+ crit. So, you have those guys to deal with, but they are the reason I'm racing M35+: I can get nearly the same intensity and speed without having to deal with the training volume needed to race P/1/2. If all the strong Cat 2s left M35+, it would be lame.

Voodoo76

So your choices are Peter Principal or Sandbagging? Lets say I have some talent, but know my training will be limited or sporadic. Is it fair that I race against riders who do nothing but eat, sleep & train?

Not that I'm necessarily in favor of the practice, just not sure where people are coming from in condeming it.

wfrogge

I was joking in that other thread BTW..... You guys know there is not forced or required upgrade from 3 to 2 right? Or is there... DA DA DAAAAA!

Lithuania

If someone is dominating a particular division they are probably training enough to race in the next level. They wont dominate there but they certainly should be doing alright.

im talking about the people that can for instance, race a cat 4 race, win it and then race a cat 3/4 race a few hours later and podium there too.

jrennie

there is in the ncnca. 60 points in 12 months is an auto upgrade.

wfrogge

In the 90s I know they used the auto upgrade system but with all the sandbagging ive seen here and around my area they clearly dont enforce it anymore.

Homebrew01

Then why have categories ?? We'll all race together & get better.

I totally agree that racing & riding with better guys makes you stronger. But on any given day there's always enough competition within a category to make it challenging.

When I was a youngster, I looked forward to improving and upgrading. One weekend I won 2 races, and pissed off a couple of guys who told me I should upgrade. They were right. I had only just got to that level though. I had not been winning & placing in the top 3 month after month, or year after year.

Now I'm old & out of shape, but would still like to see how far I can get now that I'm riding again after many years off.... maybe I can move up another category and beat some youngsters once in a while.

Homebrew01

Sounds like "rules" are pretty random. Way back when I was a 3 I was told to upgrade to a 2.

cat4ever

How can you sandbag an age group race?

cat4ever

It only bothers me when they beat guys on my team. There were more in the cat 4's when I was a cat 4 than there are in the 3's it seems.

DrWJODonnell

I guess I will chime in as the resident Sandbagger. There are arguments on both sides of the equation, and frankly, I tend to agree with the people who are for upgrading, and forced upgrades. Still, guilty as I am of being a sandbagger, I have my reasons which I could not hope to lay out for you on the website as they span the gamut of everything that is life. However, for those of you whom I offend, I apologize and as a sandbagger you can feel free to flame me and my kind as much as you like.

Bottom line is that I have achieved what I want to be able to in Cycling. I am able to time trial against the p1/2/3 group. Going above or beyond that is neither feasible (I'm too old/lazy/smart to even think of trying to apply some supposed talent to pursue a career in cycling even assuming I had the talent) nor desireable/advisable. I have been a 3 for one year. I hardly think that wanting to get experience riding with 3's is a crime (do I want to be one of those cat5 to cat 1 in one year types?), and frankly, I follow my coach's advice. He told me, "If I thought you were sandbagging, I would tell you. You are not ready for a Cat 2 lifestyle."

I train maybe 8-10 hours a week. I have no desire to train more than that. I don't wish to "make the leap" which I have been told is bigger than the difference between any other categories. I don't want to make the mistake of many of my friends who upgraded only to be shocked by the reality that they could not hack the 2's. I am not old enough to race the 35+, and 30+, while technically master's, does not exist around here. So, I will settle in to racing the 3's until I am either ready to commit to the 2's, am forced to upgrade, my coach tells me that I am indeed sandbagging (he coaches a number of national champions) or any host of other changes occur in my life. Until then, I will continue to race when I can, and share winnings with my team and donate to good causes including the Juniors racers who are the real future.

Cypress

I guess We're lucky over here. Our rep is a **** ****** **** ********* ** ******* ********** *** ******* *.

patentcad

I nominate this post for the BF Wild Optimist Award for 2008.

patentcad

Thank you Jesus.

Snuffleupagus

Rack packed with dachshund or Spanish trampoline wax buffers !

?

Cypress

lol

curveship

From USA Cycling:

However, like everything, it's the local rep's responsibility to enforce/interpret the rules.

FWIW, I've got 38 points on a cat 2 upgrade, so I have the option but don't have to. I've decided, at least for the moment, not to jump. My mentality about racing is entirely weekend warrior. Competing against the pros ... just not interested. Plus my training and power numbers are substantially below what they were last year, not that they were so stellar even then! For now, I intend to opt for a few more 1/2/3 instead of 3 or 3/4 races. I've also joined a team and plan to work more for teammates than myself.

carpediemracing 

I talked with a guy after a race he won (I got 6th or something). That year he won 21 races, got second 22 times, and I forget all the other top 6 places he got. I raced a lot that year and I only did 55 races (!).

Do the math:
7 points per win x 21 races = 147 points
5 points per 2nd place x 22 races = 110 points.

His tally for just 1sts and 2nds is 257 points.

He told me this is a typical year for him.

He's a Cat 3.

He's been forcibly upgraded each year for a while now. He enters early season races and DNFs all of them (as a 2). He then points out to the rep that his work/training schedule changed and he can't train like he did "last year". He gets the downgrade to 3. And starts over again.

I can't remember if there's a rule about downgrading but I think if you didn't place top 10 in a race of your category in a year, you can get downgraded. This is more for 1s and 2s than any other category.

It's very frustrating racing against him because he can and does win P/1/2/3 races. He wants to be a 3 because he can make more money and ultimately that's one of his goals in racing. He's old enough to do Masters so will do Masters, 3s, and 1/2/3s and make a nice chunk of change.

Incidentally time trialing is NOT a qualifying race. So anyone who can time trial really fast can still be a 4 or a 3. Not a problem.

But those that win or place in big races (Masters for example) and remain a Cat 4 (I know of one) or Cat 3 (I know a bunch)? Doesn't seem fair. Many Masters are ex-Cat 2s or 1s that have downgraded to 3s. Then they enter the 3s and the Masters and do well (i.e. in a position to win) in each. Doesn't seem right to me. I figure if they're placing top 3 or 6 all the time, the points ought to count in both the Masters and the 3s (or 4s) category, and if they then qualify to move up, hey, you're a 2! (or "hey, you're a 3!").

I vote against sandbagging,
cdr

ElJamoquio

The rules exist.

Someone isn't sandbagging if they operate within the rules.

If they're on the other side of the rules, and it bothers you enough to *****, then ***** at the official. Let me know how far that gets you.

caloso

I aspire to be accused of sandbagging.

DrWJODonnell

Actually, that is assuming crits. However, with road races, 21 x 10 = 210 points. 22 second place finishes at 7 points for a road race? 154 points. So the total in the road race scenario is what? 364 points? In a typical year? Yeah. That is sandbagging, even in my liberal eyes.

dirtyphotons

hell, i aspire to be fast enough that someone else's sandbagging would bother me.