Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Clayton, NC
    My Bikes
    2009 Specialized Ruby Sworks SL w/SRAM Red; 2006 Fuji Team RC; 2008 Felt F1x; 1980's Lotus Excelle; Mangusta FG/SS; Rossin (yet to be built up)
    Posts
    2,732
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    interval terrain, NP & AP?

    Hey guys,

    Sorta lurk in here every now & then, picking up a few tips & just trying to absorb some of the info I see passing through here. I have been using a PowerTap since November and have been getting some advice from a friend who has one (he also has had the services of a coach for several years and has been using the PT for a while too).

    I have a question about intervals…my friend tells me that when I do them, the NP & AP should be fairly close together and that I should also try to keep my cadence high, as I’m trying to get a good aerobic workout in. I usually do my intervals on a Wednesday during my lunch hour (plus more cause I usually don’t finish within that time) and the terrain I have to work with has mostly rolling hills & some flats. Yesterday, my numbers were 196/185/98, 188/177/96, and 186/176/96 (np/ap/rpm) (or numbers similar, as I’m at work right now and can’t remember exactly, but these are ballpark). These were 8minX3 in my Level4 with 4min rest. (and, don’t laugh at my numbers…guess they’re just what they are cause I need to drop some weight & I’m a girl). My friend was pleased with my effort, as was I, but said I needed to try and get the numbers closer together. How do you do this if you can only view AP on the PT in interval mode?

    The previous time I did them, I had to do them on a Saturday and the terrain was basically flat and the NP & AP were very close to one another, like within 2-3w, and the NP for those intervals were way above what we thought my threshold wattage was. Is there something I can do, as far as how I ride (or maybe where I ride), that will help me get the numbers closer? Or should I try to do them on a Saturday before my longer (3+hr) ride? Saturday’s are sometimes group rides, so if I did them on those days, I guess I would just go out to the front of the group and perform my intervals & fall back to the group during the rest period.

    Also, I’ve done 2 20min-field tests for determining FTP (Nov. & Dec). The first one was a real learning experience about pacing and what happens when you start out way to fast/hard. My peak 20min for the first one was 182w. I did another one then in December, and the numbers were the same. Tho, when I finished this one, I felt like I probably could have gone much harder. I then did a group ride the following week, where over the course of 3.5hr, at the end, my NP was 186w AP was 160w and I didn’t feel as if I had worked all that hard. This ride wasn’t a fast, paceline type of ride, but more on the social, ride fairly fast but wait at the turns for the slower riders kind of ride. So, my friend thinks that my FTP might be more close to 200-210w and had me adjust my threshold watts to 195w to determine my Level1-7. I guess I need to do another 20min test and go till I practically puke….

    I guess your thoughts/advice/suggestions for doing these intervals is what I'm looking for as well as any other advice you might have to offer.

    Thanks - wp.
    wolfpackcycles
    skiffrun: Enjoy the ride. Ride for the enjoyment.

  2. #2
    Burning Matches. ElJamoquio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    My Bikes
    Motobecane Le Champion SL, Cervelo P2SL
    Posts
    9,663
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I personally don't get all too hung up on whether my FTP is x watts or x + 10 watts; because on some levels (3-5) I can 'overachieve' what I should, and on others (6-7) I generally underachieve.

    As such I tailor my target power.

    So personally I wouldn't worry about the delta in your AP/NP; or what your FTP was. I'd probably try 200 watts as FTP, try some workouts, and see what the response is.
    Reacting is mind candy; it requires no thought. Thinking is tedious.

    Bikeforums 'Group Buy': Kinlin Rims, Sapim/DT Spokes, Formula/Bitex Hubs


    "The only good race pace is suicide pace, and today looks like a good day to die."
    -Steve Prefontaine

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    2,968
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpack View Post
    my friend tells me that when I do them, the NP & AP should be fairly close together and that I should also try to keep my cadence high, as I’m trying to get a good aerobic workout in.
    I would ask why NP and AP fairly close together is desirable per se, then I would say let specificity guide you in how you do the intervals.

  4. #4
    Slow'n'Aero DrWJODonnell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Driving the pace in the crosswind
    Posts
    2,599
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    For an interval, while it is nice to have a great, steady effort, don't fret over it too much. After all, the intervals should be set up for a ZONE - that is, a range of numbers. If both your average an NP are within that zone, you are probably doing ok.

    With regards to the Power tap displaying only average during an interval, that would drive me nuts. I use an SRM and so I can see present time power or average if I choose (I never choose average). Is it not possible at all to see anything other than average power while doing an interval?

    Finally, you r power numbers are just fine. Don't fret them at all. I know a lot of guys who have similar threshold power. Oh, one other thing, Your weight will not affect your power (not in the way you described. Actually, people with high weights typically put out MORE absolute power).

  5. #5
    Burning Matches. ElJamoquio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    My Bikes
    Motobecane Le Champion SL, Cervelo P2SL
    Posts
    9,663
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    WJ/wolfpack - you can set up your PT to display either average or current power. Your current power can be set up to be a 1 sec display, or a variety of other time-average (I believe 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 30 seconds, or something like that).
    Reacting is mind candy; it requires no thought. Thinking is tedious.

    Bikeforums 'Group Buy': Kinlin Rims, Sapim/DT Spokes, Formula/Bitex Hubs


    "The only good race pace is suicide pace, and today looks like a good day to die."
    -Steve Prefontaine

  6. #6
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Clayton, NC
    My Bikes
    2009 Specialized Ruby Sworks SL w/SRAM Red; 2006 Fuji Team RC; 2008 Felt F1x; 1980's Lotus Excelle; Mangusta FG/SS; Rossin (yet to be built up)
    Posts
    2,732
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    OK, thanks guys. Is there some significance for having or “wanting” your NP & AP to be fairly close together? Does this mean anything if they are close or not?

    And, yea I do have my zones set up and AP falls right smack in the middle of my Z4 and the NP is more towards the upper end. I have my PT set up to show AP, otherwise I don’t think I’ve been doing these intervals long enough to “know” whether I’m staying within that Zone or not. This was only my 2nd or 3rd time doing 8min intervals and probably only my 5th or 6th total.

    I shouldn’t really worry about the terrain either from what I’ve gathered from these posts. Just go out and do the effort on whatever terrain I have. Also, the only reason I mentioned my weight was that I am trying to lose some in order to help with the climbing. I didn’t think it had any affect on what kind of power numbers I produced.

    If I change the display to show real-time power instead of average, do you have any recommendation for the display time? I think it may be set on 2 or 3 seconds currently.
    wolfpackcycles
    skiffrun: Enjoy the ride. Ride for the enjoyment.

  7. #7
    Climbing Above It All BikeWNC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Basking in the Sun.
    Posts
    4,146
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    As you get used to a particular course, get more experience pacing at a certain effort, the NP and AP will get closer. The thing about threshold interval efforts are that they are not so hard that you can't work on other things while you do them. Pacing your effort, maintaining a steady cadence, breathing, posture and pedal stroke are all things that can be worked on. So basically, the more you do them the better you get at them. Just relax and try to enjoy the workout.

    I display instantaneous power averaged every 2 sec when I ride. I keep the recording interval at 1 sec though.

  8. #8
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Clayton, NC
    My Bikes
    2009 Specialized Ruby Sworks SL w/SRAM Red; 2006 Fuji Team RC; 2008 Felt F1x; 1980's Lotus Excelle; Mangusta FG/SS; Rossin (yet to be built up)
    Posts
    2,732
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Guess I just need to find a route that I’m a bit comfortable with, not one that has all the downhill as the one I did yesterday, and do my intervals there. I've about got the location nailed down...we'll see next week.

    And, not that I doubt what this friend is telling me, I just have a lot of questions sometimes (ok, all the time) and don’t want to bother him with all the questions, so I throw a post out and see what others have to say. Sometimes it can be a good thing to get other opinions, but I'll stick with the friend as he's sorta close, like half a state away, I get to ride with him every now & then, and so far the advice given as been great.

    True about the effort at threshold – yesterday wasn’t so hard that I couldn’t try to focus on the cadence and keep it high. I think I did a pretty damn good job at that aspect yesterday. Now, I just have to replicate that the next time and see what's next to work on at the same time. Did someone say “multi-tasking”? And, more experience requires that I have more of this thing called Patience. That is the most elusive thing I’ve every tried to acquire! I’m trying tho.

    Thanks.
    wolfpackcycles
    skiffrun: Enjoy the ride. Ride for the enjoyment.

  9. #9
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Austin (near TX)
    My Bikes
    rkwaki's porn collection
    Posts
    26,104
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    NP and AP will be close for generally steady efforts. On hills where your power goes up on the climb and down on the descent, you will start to see some NP/AP separation. I agree with the suggestions not to worry about it, as the zone will be effective in training.

    Still, there is something to be learned from this. Associating the required PE to maintain an effort on a flat or downhill section can be useful. My new hill repeat course has a 300m section that is flat, and it's strikig how much tougher it feels to maintain the wattage on that section. I was riding it with a friend who doesn't have a power meter, and he thought I attacked on that section. Here you can see the power is steady when the speed climbs up to ~23mph mid-climb (although I dropped briefly when I went up to the big ring).


  10. #10
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Clayton, NC
    My Bikes
    2009 Specialized Ruby Sworks SL w/SRAM Red; 2006 Fuji Team RC; 2008 Felt F1x; 1980's Lotus Excelle; Mangusta FG/SS; Rossin (yet to be built up)
    Posts
    2,732
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    yea, i think that with more riding (i.e. experience), i'll have a better feel for PE associated/required to maintain an effort (or wattage) on any given section of terrain. lots to learn i know. thanks for the responses given so far. wp.
    wolfpackcycles
    skiffrun: Enjoy the ride. Ride for the enjoyment.

  11. #11
    Killing Rabbits
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,695
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpack View Post
    Hey guys,

    Sorta lurk in here every now & then, picking up a few tips & just trying to absorb some of the info I see passing through here. I have been using a PowerTap since November and have been getting some advice from a friend who has one (he also has had the services of a coach for several years and has been using the PT for a while too).

    I have a question about intervals…my friend tells me that when I do them, the NP & AP should be fairly close together and that I should also try to keep my cadence high, as I’m trying to get a good aerobic workout in. I usually do my intervals on a Wednesday during my lunch hour (plus more cause I usually don’t finish within that time) and the terrain I have to work with has mostly rolling hills & some flats. Yesterday, my numbers were 196/185/98, 188/177/96, and 186/176/96 (np/ap/rpm) (or numbers similar, as I’m at work right now and can’t remember exactly, but these are ballpark). These were 8minX3 in my Level4 with 4min rest. (and, don’t laugh at my numbers…guess they’re just what they are cause I need to drop some weight & I’m a girl). My friend was pleased with my effort, as was I, but said I needed to try and get the numbers closer together. How do you do this if you can only view AP on the PT in interval mode?

    The previous time I did them, I had to do them on a Saturday and the terrain was basically flat and the NP & AP were very close to one another, like within 2-3w, and the NP for those intervals were way above what we thought my threshold wattage was. Is there something I can do, as far as how I ride (or maybe where I ride), that will help me get the numbers closer? Or should I try to do them on a Saturday before my longer (3+hr) ride? Saturday’s are sometimes group rides, so if I did them on those days, I guess I would just go out to the front of the group and perform my intervals & fall back to the group during the rest period.

    Also, I’ve done 2 20min-field tests for determining FTP (Nov. & Dec). The first one was a real learning experience about pacing and what happens when you start out way to fast/hard. My peak 20min for the first one was 182w. I did another one then in December, and the numbers were the same. Tho, when I finished this one, I felt like I probably could have gone much harder. I then did a group ride the following week, where over the course of 3.5hr, at the end, my NP was 186w AP was 160w and I didn’t feel as if I had worked all that hard. This ride wasn’t a fast, paceline type of ride, but more on the social, ride fairly fast but wait at the turns for the slower riders kind of ride. So, my friend thinks that my FTP might be more close to 200-210w and had me adjust my threshold watts to 195w to determine my Level1-7. I guess I need to do another 20min test and go till I practically puke….

    I guess your thoughts/advice/suggestions for doing these intervals is what I'm looking for as well as any other advice you might have to offer.

    Thanks - wp.
    Increase the intensity of your 8min intervals.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    3,918
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    NP and AP should be pretty close if not dead even during intervals. If not either you went too hard at first, too easy at first, or took a break in the middle (or had to stop for red light, cars, etc). If its hilly or you dont have a stretch of road long enough to complete the interval its not a big deal just go hard as you can and try to avoid
    "making up" time by pushing way over your zone to compensate.... Example, getting held up at a red light then sprinting way over your watt/HR zone trying to make up the difference thus burning possibly your last match. Its best IMHO to have the interval at a steady state but one of the worst things to do is try to push harder than you should just because of a delay.

    edit:


    One of the hardest things for athletes to get right is their true PE zones. For the first 3 or so years of heavy training you will push to new levels.. past points where you thought you will die. Lot of it has to do with having a better aerobic base (giving you the ability to acually push) and the rest is mental.


    edit two:

    Dont worry about your power numbers cause they are what they are. From what I have seen only the very skinny folks will drop wattage because they lose weight (losing muscle cause theres not much fat left). My guess is your power will INCREASE while your weight drops giving you a steady increase of w/kg .. And thats a good thing *assuming you keep working hard*
    Last edited by wfrogge; 01-24-08 at 09:33 PM.
    Please remember that all statements unless quoted, are strictly my opinion of what happened. That there are as many opinions as there are spectators attending. I just choose to publish mine on this forum. And would NEVER intend to purposely hurt or discredit any other cyclist.... With that said... HTFU!

  13. #13
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Clayton, NC
    My Bikes
    2009 Specialized Ruby Sworks SL w/SRAM Red; 2006 Fuji Team RC; 2008 Felt F1x; 1980's Lotus Excelle; Mangusta FG/SS; Rossin (yet to be built up)
    Posts
    2,732
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    So my friend told me last night that having NP & AP fairly close or dead even as you say, means that I'm doing consistant work throughout the interval. Like I said earlier, big learning experience going on here and I'm sure it's gonna take more time than I currently have patience for to learn. But, I'll learn eventually.

    I think what happened on the intervals I did Wednesday was exactly what you've said wfrogge - I have a tendency to go out too hard initially and I have to ease up a bit more to complete the 1st interval. Then, I also the tendency to try to "make-up" time if I get caught at a light or stop sign or to push harder than I should after going through a section of roadway that is downhill. These downhill sections kill me, as far as keeping the power high and/or consistant. Guess I have to learn how to pace myself better.

    PE - I really don't have any idea as to what my PE "levels" might be. This is the first year that I've ever done any sort of training, so those will have to be learned as well. Prior to this year, I think I just rode to get the miles in with no real cycling goal. The person I rode a lot with last year is of the mentality that you ride either Hard or Harder and get in as many miles as you can during the year. I don't think this is a good training philosophy, it's not going to help me get better, but only get me hurt (which it did last May - tendonitis/bursitis in my knee that's still somewhat of a problem). Right now, I'm just trying to work on the aerobic base, which is one of my weaknesses. Sometimes it seems like so much to learn - it becomes overwhelming at times.

    So, on my next interval workout, I'll just try to pace myself a little better on the intervals (especially the first one) and remember to not try to "make-up" time.

    Quote Originally Posted by wfrogge View Post
    NP and AP should be pretty close if not dead even during intervals. If not either you went too hard at first, too easy at first, or took a break in the middle (or had to stop for red light, cars, etc). If its hilly or you dont have a stretch of road long enough to complete the interval its not a big deal just go hard as you can and try to avoid "making up" time by pushing way over your zone to compensate.... Example, getting held up at a red light then sprinting way over your watt/HR zone trying to make up the difference thus burning possibly your last match. Its best IMHO to have the interval at a steady state but one of the worst things to do is try to push harder than you should just because of a delay.

    edit:


    One of the hardest things for athletes to get right is their true PE zones. For the first 3 or so years of heavy training you will push to new levels.. past points where you thought you will die. Lot of it has to do with having a better aerobic base (giving you the ability to acually push) and the rest is mental.


    edit two:

    Dont worry about your power numbers cause they are what they are. From what I have seen only the very skinny folks will drop wattage because they lose weight (losing muscle cause theres not much fat left). My guess is your power will INCREASE while your weight drops giving you a steady increase of w/kg .. And thats a good thing *assuming you keep working hard*
    wolfpackcycles
    skiffrun: Enjoy the ride. Ride for the enjoyment.

  14. #14
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Austin (near TX)
    My Bikes
    rkwaki's porn collection
    Posts
    26,104
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yeah, there is a lot of information to absorb in training with power. I've felt overwhelmed too. I just learn a little at a time, getting more comfortable as I move through it.

    I'm guessing you've already seen the Borg personal exertion stuff, but here it is anyway. There's a great description of what each zone feels like in the table at the bottom.

    http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/levels.asp

  15. #15
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Clayton, NC
    My Bikes
    2009 Specialized Ruby Sworks SL w/SRAM Red; 2006 Fuji Team RC; 2008 Felt F1x; 1980's Lotus Excelle; Mangusta FG/SS; Rossin (yet to be built up)
    Posts
    2,732
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    yea, i've seen that, haven't looked at it recently, but probably should look over it to try and understand how i'm feeling during the rides. i do have "the book" for training with power and have been reading it, but like everything else about training with power, it's a lot to absorb...
    wolfpackcycles
    skiffrun: Enjoy the ride. Ride for the enjoyment.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •