Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    Acquiring new target.... carlfreddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    My Bikes
    Trek XO-1, Gary Fisher Rig
    Posts
    1,276
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Leogrande names as "un-named" cyclist suing USADA

    http://beta.velonews.com/article/71575

    I had thought that his A sample from the ICC he won cam back positive? Am I mistaken or was that back in 2006, not 2007?

    Anyway, how often does the USADA decide to test the B sample after the A sample comes back negative?

    Could the illustrious Mr. Ball be on to something when he says that it's prejudice against Leogrande by the conservative establishment?

    Discuss.
    Last edited by carlfreddy; 01-26-08 at 04:46 PM.
    There are only 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...dy/cartoon.gif

  2. #2
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
    My Bikes
    Focus Raven 29er, Santa Cruz Blur LTc
    Posts
    4,568
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carlfreddy View Post
    http://beta.velonews.com/article/71575

    I had thought that his A sample from the ICC he won cam back positive? Am I mistaken or was that back in 2006, not 2007?

    Anyway, how often does the USADA decide to test the B sample after the A sample comes back positive?

    Could the illustrious Mr. Ball be on to something when he says that it's prejudice against Leogrande by the conservative establishment?

    Discuss.
    I believe you mean "test the B sample after the A sample comes back negative."
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  3. #3
    Acquiring new target.... carlfreddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    My Bikes
    Trek XO-1, Gary Fisher Rig
    Posts
    1,276
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    I believe you mean "test the B sample after the A sample comes back negative."
    OOoo.

    That is indeed what I meant.
    There are only 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...dy/cartoon.gif

  4. #4
    Senior Member Dubbayoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Atlanta
    My Bikes
    Pedal Force QS3
    Posts
    7,683
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Man, I disagree 101% with naming a guy bringing an anonymous lawsuit. I don't care for the guy nor his tats but that is bogus. Crap journalism, imo.

  5. #5
    The mods changed this... damocles1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The USADA is supposed to destroy the 'B' sample after an 'A' sample comes back negative. Again, the USADA is changing their own rules as they go. It has nothing to do with Ball or Kayle.

    Floyd brought up this point in an interview with Velonews last week.

    Do I think Kayle doped? Who knows? Did he fail a piss test? NOPE!

  6. #6
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tariffville, CT
    My Bikes
    Tsunami Bikes
    Posts
    12,149
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think if USADA tests the B sample, that's their prerogative. They can use the results for more targeted testing, training new technicians, whatever.

    However, unless there is other evidence of doping (apparently there are people who claim Leogrande was doping but then again I don't know what that means), a single sample, A or B, can't be used to levy a punishment. Witness Hamilton's destroyed B sample.

    So, fine, test, and test well (they probably want to do more stringent tests, which perhaps Leogrande may not pass, or at least he thinks he may not). But unless there is other evidence (sworn witness and backup data), the test results can only be banked, not used.

    If the test comes back positive, they have to keep their mouths shut and just pick him for more testing when he has another winning streak. Then do some of the expensive tests that they didn't do before.

    cdr

  7. #7
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tariffville, CT
    My Bikes
    Tsunami Bikes
    Posts
    12,149
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I was curious about the process and did some research.

    There is no mention of destroying the B sample if the A sample is negative. In fact, there is a clause for racers to make their samples available for testing/research purposes.

    http://www.usantidoping.org/files/ac...e_handbook.pdf

    cdr

  8. #8
    seppomadness
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    I think if USADA tests the B sample, that's their prerogative. They can use the results for more targeted testing, training new technicians, whatever.

    However, unless there is other evidence of doping (apparently there are people who claim Leogrande was doping but then again I don't know what that means), a single sample, A or B, can't be used to levy a punishment. Witness Hamilton's destroyed B sample.

    So, fine, test, and test well (they probably want to do more stringent tests, which perhaps Leogrande may not pass, or at least he thinks he may not). But unless there is other evidence (sworn witness and backup data), the (single) test results (in isolation) can only be banked, not used.

    If the test comes back positive, they have to keep their mouths shut and just pick him for more testing when he has another winning streak. Then do some of the expensive tests that they didn't do before.

    cdr
    Basically this is 100% accurate. It is an entirely well thought out, rational and ethical position to take. Once again I am impressed. Not bad for a seppo

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    2,939
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    There is no mention of destroying the B sample if the A sample is negative. In fact, there is a clause for racers to make their samples available for testing/research purposes.[/url]

    cdr
    But doesn't the fact that the athlete must consent in writing for the sample to be used for research indicate that it can not be used without consent? Further, since no AAF can be had without a positive A sample, what reason can there be for testing the B other than research?

    "You can contribute to anti-doping research as well. To
    voluntarily choose this option, check the box on the Doping
    Control Official Record that gives your consent for research.
    After the analysis of your sample, any remaining urine can
    be used for research with your consent. "

  10. #10
    Acquiring new target.... carlfreddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    My Bikes
    Trek XO-1, Gary Fisher Rig
    Posts
    1,276
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    So, fine, test, and test well (they probably want to do more stringent tests, which perhaps Leogrande may not pass, or at least he thinks he may not). But unless there is other evidence (sworn witness and backup data), the test results can only be banked, not used.
    I think the problem is that there is a fear that the ToC will bar Leogrande from competing since, technically, he is involved in an on-going doping case.

    And if that is the motivation for the suit, I agree completely.
    There are only 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...dy/cartoon.gif

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    2,939
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carlfreddy View Post
    And if that is the motivation for the suit, I agree completely.
    Further, if USADA is prohibited from commenting on pending investigations, how could anyone know if any rider is officially under investigation. By definition, any statement that a rider is under investigation is unofficial.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,243
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    There have been rumors about Kayle in SoCal back to 2006. About that time he started openly discussing doping with many riders in the SoCal peleton. He also bragged about and showed some riders the products he was using. Then it was rumored that he failed the test when he won at Downer's. The follow up to that rumor was that his B sample at the time cleared him. If he doesn't have anything to hide why file an anonymous lawsuit and call a reporter and tell him to "lose" his phone number? I think it would be faster to file a lawsuit forcing the USADA to test the sample, collect their witness statements and make a decision so they can close their investigation.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
    My Bikes
    Focus Raven 29er, Santa Cruz Blur LTc
    Posts
    4,568
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think just about everyone has heard the 2006 rumors. I'm inclined to believe them a bit, but I'm not going to throw the guy under the bus until I hear two positive tests, A and B. He's entitled to that.

    That said, when he took off from the *** at a SuperWeek race, lapped the field with two pr three other guys in tow, and then took off again, THAT was impressive. Pretty serious field he put a hurtin' on.
    Last edited by Duke of Kent; 01-27-08 at 12:57 AM.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,243
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What if he told you he was doping and showed you his vast supply of doping products? Would you still think he wasn't cheating because he could pass the very lenient tests. There are more dopers than the ones that are getting caught. Most of them know how to pass the tests and will tell you how close to race day they can inject EPO or testoserone or HGH and still pass the test.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Upstate NY
    My Bikes
    Focus Raven 29er, Santa Cruz Blur LTc
    Posts
    4,568
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by redal View Post
    What if he told you he was doping and showed you his vast supply of doping products? Would you still think he wasn't cheating because he could pass the very lenient tests. There are more dopers than the ones that are getting caught. Most of them know how to pass the tests and will tell you how close to race day they can inject EPO or testoserone or HGH and still pass the test.
    Oh I'm not saying I disagree with you. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he was. But I'm not the judge, nor am I the jury.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  16. #16
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tariffville, CT
    My Bikes
    Tsunami Bikes
    Posts
    12,149
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    But doesn't the fact that the athlete must consent in writing for the sample to be used for research indicate that it can not be used without consent?
    I believe that's true if there is no other evidence of doping.

    However, USADA says that non-positives can still lead to a doping conviction if there are corroborating witnesses, evidence of use, even possession.

    I have to imagine something like this happened (this is me talking, not USADA):
    1. Tests are expensive so they do the test:epi test but not the more expensive carbon isotope test.
    2. Test:epi comes back negative.
    3. Someone contacts USADA and says that so-and-so uses Androgel in patch form and they saw him use it. And maybe something else that boosts epi (it's on the list of prohibited stuff) or reduces hormone levels in test (like the "no hormones in DiLuca's urine" thing).
    4. Since this is a serious charge, USADA must investigate this. It's like someone calling 911 and saying "Someone raped me". No matter what the caller says after that, there has to be an investigation to make sure that either someone got raped or someone didn't get raped.
    5. Since USADA is investigating so-and-so, they probably (and this is where I'm not clear) have the right to test the B sample and do, say, a carbon isotope test (very damning if found positive) or maybe check the actual hormone levels (i.e. does he have less testosterone than an infant?).

    Although suing doesn't prove anything one way or another, it's like Allan Davis's situation. As soon as he was implicated in Operation Puerto he volunteered to give his DNA. He didn't go suing anyone to shut them up, nor did he do it anonymously. The fact that someone sued anonymously to have an investigation ended, well, that sounds sort of suspicious to me. In France, where they can hold you for no reason? No. Here in the US where criminals walk all the time? Yes.

    So who leaked the identity, if it really is Leogrande? A lot of people have an interest in building support for him, and presented correctly, a lot of people will support him. It could have been Ball, the lawyers, etc.

    I have to believe the USADA did not leak Leogrande's name. First, it won't help their investigation. Second, they kept some guys under wraps that I RACED AGAINST. No one knew about the four guys who tested positive in my area. Okay, for one there were rumors of a "locked box" he carried around, but the others? Not a whiff of controversy. This means no one told anyone. Where I am rumors spread pretty quickly but no one knew until the suspension was announced, then everyone was like "Hm, let me look at pictures of this guy... ooh... and he won here, here, and here? Hm... he used to be pack fodder and now look at him."

    My point is USADA has been pretty tight.

    Typically USADA is prohibited from making announcements regarding ongoing investigations. The "investigatee" is not. So USADA, for example, couldn't say a word while Landis was posting stuff everywhere. And, as far as I can tell, USADA didn't say anything.

    cdr

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    2,939
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    The fact that someone sued anonymously to have an investigation ended, well, that sounds sort of suspicious to me.
    John Doe did not sue anonymously. He filed under his own name and it was known to the court and parties involved. The public release was cleansed for reasons previously stated.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    2,939
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    Although suing doesn't prove anything one way or another, it's like Allan Davis's situation. As soon as he was implicated in Operation Puerto he volunteered to give his DNA. He didn't go suing anyone to shut them up, nor did he do it anonymously.
    Funny you should say this is about shutting USADA up. Bill Hue, the Wisconsin state judge who comments on TBV, suggests one goal of the suit is to get USAC/USADA on the record through depositions given under oath following U.S. laws of evidence. Remember the same legal team working on the Landis case is pursuing this one, so it could be an opportunity for them to get information that might help Landis. The courts provide much greater discovery than was allowed by USADA.

    There's an intriguing analysis of why USAC is doing this here. http://rant-your-head-off.com/WordPress/

  19. #19
    Acquiring new target.... carlfreddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    My Bikes
    Trek XO-1, Gary Fisher Rig
    Posts
    1,276
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
    Funny you should say this is about shutting USADA up. Bill Hue, the Wisconsin state judge who comments on TBV, suggests one goal of the suit is to get USAC/USADA on the record through depositions given under oath following U.S. laws of evidence. Remember the same legal team working on the Landis case is pursuing this one, so it could be an opportunity for them to get information that might help Landis. The courts provide much greater discovery than was allowed by USADA.

    There's an intriguing analysis of why USAC is doing this here. http://rant-your-head-off.com/WordPress/
    I noticed that suggestion (the judges comments can be seen here) on TBV.

    What good will come of getting USADA on record? Does "John Doe" want this so that his negative A-sample is officially on record? Or in an effort to get USADA to state that they are using the B-sample as a means of building their non-analytical findings case against the rider?

    Also, something I'm not exactly clear on; if the USADA tests a B-sample after the A-sample came back negative under the premise of research and/or building a non-analytical findings case, how are the results used? Say the B-sample comes back positive, if they use that result as the basis for their ruling how is that a non-analytical finding?

    Normally I don't even think twice when I hear/read about another cyclist being involved in a doping case, but for some reason this story caught my interest. Maybe because it involves an Elite cyclist versus a professional?
    There are only 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...dy/cartoon.gif

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,085
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Leogrande has long been known as the man with what you need to win races in cali, they've been trying to pop him forever.
    Cat 1 o-meter 33%

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •