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Old 01-30-08, 11:16 PM   #1
Double D
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What do you think about "sandbagging"

Okay, I'll go first:

I've heard a lot of excuses from sandbaggers for why they won't upgrade, most of them are something along the lines of (and I'm definitely paraphrasing, LOL) "I won't win all the races in the next cat up because...", and then it's usually something about not having the time to train to be "competitive" (to the sandbagger "competitive" means that they win), or being too old to be "competitive", or not having the natural talent required to be "competitive".

There's no excuse for sandbagging. It's not like one person has a special right to win all their races.

Who cares if you want to train for longer races or not? CURRENT results are the basis for upgrading. Just because you predict that you won't dominate the next cat. is no reason to sandbag. If you've won some races it's time to move up.

Worried you won't win in the next cat.? Get over it.

If constant ego stroking is what you need then maybe cycling is not the sport for you... try Little League, with your superior size and strength I'm sure you'll dominate all the children there.

Although I'm sarcastic by nature, don't take it personally... I'm sure you're a great guy/gal but you're making a bad call by not moving up. Sandbagging is bad for the sport and hurts everyone.
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Old 01-30-08, 11:21 PM   #2
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I think it's a good idea because it can prevent flooding.

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Old 01-30-08, 11:24 PM   #3
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LOL, I stand corrected.
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Old 01-30-08, 11:41 PM   #4
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Too go ahead and give a more serious response than is warranted:

I think most sandbagging, at least here on the famous bikeforums, are 3's who don't want to upgrade. There is a huge jump in distance and speed from racing 3's (or 3/4 races) to racing pro/1/2 races. 3's have the option to race 1/2/3 races so we know what it's like to race against the 1's and 2's.

I am not winning every race. My ego rarely gets stoked in racing (much more often I get shot OTB faster than I can clip in). I worked really hard, and got a massive dose of luck, to get the points necessary to become a 2. It may sound arrogant, but I think that I know better than USA cycling whether or not I am making others' cat. 3 experience worse and whether or not I can hang in the 1/2's.
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Old 01-30-08, 11:50 PM   #5
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I am interested in peoples "serious" responses so I appreciate it. I'm just not sure if you are "for" sandbagging or against it?

I can understand winning a race with a small field or like you said, with a lot of luck. Maybe you aren't the "heavy favorite" in a cat 3 race (I think that's what you're saying?) and if so I certainly wouldn't consider that you're sandbagging.
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Old 01-31-08, 12:05 AM   #6
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This has been discussed in a recent thread.

People who hang around with more than the required upgrade points (25 in the case of cat 3s) are fine. I don't consider them sandbaggers and in general, I like racing with them - they are often the ones that are animating the races and making me faster.

People who get more than the automatic upgrade limit and lie about thier points so they don't have to upgrade, or who get the auto upgrade than go to the rep with a sob story so they can downgrade back I can do without. Mind you, I have never met anyone like this, nor do I know of anyone like this in OBRA. In fact I am pretty sure our officials at OBRA wouldn't let this happen - they are pretty strictly by the rules out here. I have read about these people on BF - I think carpediem had a good story.
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Old 01-31-08, 01:27 AM   #7
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3's have the option to race 1/2/3 races so we know what it's like to race against the 1's and 2's.
not around here, there's maybe 2 races a year that have a 1/2/3 cat
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Old 01-31-08, 06:08 AM   #8
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Define sandbagging...

Is it the Cat 3 who wins EVERY race they enter by soloing off the front and won't upgrade?

Is it the Cat 3 who has enough points to warrant the auto-upgrade and gives the sob story to be downgraded? (but finishes top 10 every race)

Is it the Cat 3 who has enough points over lifetime to upgrade 10 times over, but wins the occasional race due to lucky tactics, and is general pack fodder?

Is it the Cat 3 TT'er who podiums in every TT? (but gets no points since all he/she does is TTs)
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Old 01-31-08, 07:18 AM   #9
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eh. I don't like sandbagging. At the same time, I'm not sure I want to have to train for the epic pro12 road races. I just don't have enough time.

I'm not a sandbagger...yet. I'll see how this year goes.
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Old 01-31-08, 07:18 AM   #10
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Sandbagging - what is it and how much does it bother you?

same thread, earlier date.

Summary: stop whining and get better/race smarter.
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Old 01-31-08, 08:37 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
Sandbagging - what is it and how much does it bother you?

same thread, earlier date.

Summary: stop whining and get better/race smarter.
I'm not sure if you're directing this at Double D, but I don't think he's concerned about sandbaggers as much as he is concerned about the sport of cycling. I know him in person, and I can say with a fair ammount of confidence that he's faster than most everyone here. He's already racing at a level where there are no longer sandbaggers, so it's not really something that he's got to bother with anymore.
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Old 01-31-08, 08:52 AM   #12
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^ just sayin' in general, not directed at anyone.
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Old 01-31-08, 09:10 AM   #13
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NEWS FLASH!!!


You are not supposed to place high in every race and if you are... well challenge yourself and upgrade! If it dosent work out ask for a downgrade.


Guys that place top 10 in CAT 3 (and CAT 4) just about every race and refuse to upgrade cause "the races are too long in 1 and 2" remind me of the 12 year old kid in the baby pool with arm floaties on thats too scared of the grown up pool. Grow a a pair and CAT up.


Sandbagging is for wussy!
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Old 01-31-08, 09:15 AM   #14
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Like to keep racing fun and enjoyable. Stops being enjoyable when you have to train 15+ hours a week. Difference between a 97k RR and a 148k RR is significant.

So what about all the guys that could be racing 2s that are over in masters?
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Old 01-31-08, 09:24 AM   #15
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I agree it should be fun but if you are winnning or placing high in every CAT 3 race how much sport is really involved here?

I am not talking about the guy that gets enough points to upgrade but choses not too... Hey thats his call to make. I am talking about the guys that meet or exceed the 12 month automatic upgrade points criteria.... The guys at the end of the year that are ranked top 10 in the nation for their CAT but wont upgrade.....

You manned up for CAT 5 then 4 then 3..... why stop there? Dont give me the "I need to train 20 hours a week for 2s" BS either. You dont need that much time on the bike to race as a competitive 2. Yeah you wont place high in the 2s but few do regardless of their training so get over it. Sometimes youre tha hammer, sometimes the nail.
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Old 01-31-08, 09:52 AM   #16
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I like sandbaggers. Racing with someone faster than me is great. In M35+, we get guys who podium in the P/1/2 races, and they can kill me. Still, I'm happy to learn from them and try to hang.

Then again, I have no interest in upgrading to Cat 2, since I'll just keep racing M35+.
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Old 01-31-08, 11:19 AM   #17
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I don't like losing. Unfortunately they won't let me race with the 12 year olds. I think everyone faster than me should upgrade
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Old 01-31-08, 11:47 AM   #18
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In certain courses, if I can finish, I normally do well. Based on two courses (Bethel and New Britain), 8 races (6x Bethel, 2x New Britain) I can place, on a decent year, 6-8 times. I've won a few of them even.

I also get dropped at Ninigret (flat), Prospect (almost flat, big ring hill), even New Britain sometimes. In the past few years I got shelled at Somerville (3s), Stirling, Poughkeepsie, Providence, Hartford, New Britain (last race I did), etc etc etc. Most of those races I lasted under 10 laps, a few of them under 3 laps. One Bethel I made it 2 minutes, one lap, with the field. Then I was shelled. All Cat 3s, I don't count any p-1-2-3s I do at Bethel (usually last 1-5 laps).

So if I got upgraded to a 2 based on 40 points (conceivable since I've scored 28 points in a year, recently) then I'd be waaay out of my league. I'd petition to downgrade.

I don't even start road races - I've never finished one in the field (not even break, chase, I'm talking the FIELD) in 25 years.

If there was more of a breakdown in cats, I'd be:
Cat 3 Flat courses, crit or road race
Cat 4 Hilly courses, crit or road race (I wouldn't want to race Cat 5s but I get dropped by 4s anyway)
Cat 4 or 5 Cross (I'm officially a 3, but I've never done one)
Cat 4 or 5 Track (2 days experience, about 14-15 years ago, never rode a fixed gear otherwise)

I think for TT there doesn't need to be categories since you're not supposed to ride togther, but for a stage race you would take the racer's Hilly category if there are hilly road races, and the flat category if there are no hills in the stage race (like the defunct Tour de Michigan).

I would define "Hilly" as any course with a hill that requires a Cat 3 to use the small ring or one that is longer than, say, 1 km. Maybe an elevation ratio (feet/mile or meters/kilometer) would be more fair.

Flat is any big ring hill or short hill course or actual flat courses. Prospect Park would be considered flat. So would Bethel or Hartford. Park Ridge would not be considered flat, nor would the circuit race at Fitchburg (shelled there too, and I was in shape).

cdr
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Old 01-31-08, 12:08 PM   #19
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These threads are always polarizing. I think there are definitely points when dudes need to upgrade because they just outclass their category.

Here's a thought. If someone knows that realistically they can win any race they enter and feels this throughout the entire season then they should upgrade. This rule would apply to races that suit them as a rider, i.e. a sprinter should not be winning hill climbs and if he does, then an upgrade (or a drug test!) is definitely warranted.

The jump from 3 to 2 is huge and there are a lot of reasons to not want to do it. I know I just went through it. Ultimately I had more than enough points and couldn't resist the temptation to race with the big dogs and here in the front range of Colorado, big dogs is right on. I'm ready to get my ass kicked but **** at least I went all in and won't have regrets later in life. No 'what if's' for me.

At the end of the day this bike racing gig is all about challenging ourselves and if it's not then it's just an ego stroke. If you race just to have your ego fueled than you have bigger problems and people railing on you to upgrade should just forget and train harder to smash you.
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Old 01-31-08, 12:34 PM   #20
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I like sandbaggers. Racing with someone faster than me is great. In M35+, we get guys who podium in the P/1/2 races, and they can kill me. Still, I'm happy to learn from them and try to hang.

Then again, I have no interest in upgrading to Cat 2, since I'll just keep racing M35+.
I wish I could downgrade...
I like racing M35+...the other stuff is just too painful...
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Old 01-31-08, 12:34 PM   #21
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Define sandbagging...

Is it the Cat 3 who wins EVERY race they enter by soloing off the front and won't upgrade?

Is it the Cat 3 who has enough points to warrant the auto-upgrade and gives the sob story to be downgraded? (but finishes top 10 every race)

Is it the Cat 3 who has enough points over lifetime to upgrade 10 times over, but wins the occasional race due to lucky tactics, and is general pack fodder?

Is it the Cat 3 TT'er who podiums in every TT? (but gets no points since all he/she does is TTs)
Rider 1. Definitely

Rider 2. Yes, if you're really finishing top 10 EVERY race then I'm sure you'll have won a few too. Upgrade.

Rider 3. I certainly don't think this is a sandbagger. I honestly don't care about points. USAC is a big, sluggish, stupid bureaucracy and their "strictly points" system is a reflection of this.

Rider 4. OF COURSE... a race is race. If you podium in every race you enter then freakin' upgrade already and quit ruining it for the legitimate racers in your cat.

35+ and other "age" riders. I honestly have no problem with strong riders racing this cat. Apparently the only requirement is that you've been alive XX number of years.

The bottom line for me is that if you are winning races on a somewhat regular basis and you're always one of the stronger racers (not getting dropped) you should upgrade.

Don't be selfish. You don't have to win every time to have fun.
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Old 01-31-08, 12:37 PM   #22
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One my teammates was doing really well in the 3s and everyone was calling him a sandbagger (although most were joking I believe). He upgraded to a 2 and won his first race of the season (a crit). But he got shelled on the (very hilly) road race the next day. He may have had the points for a forced upgrade, I'm not sure.
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Old 01-31-08, 12:42 PM   #23
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These threads are always polarizing. I think there are definitely points when dudes need to upgrade because they just outclass their category.

Here's a thought. If someone knows that realistically they can win any race they enter and feels this throughout the entire season then they should upgrade. This rule would apply to races that suit them as a rider, i.e. a sprinter should not be winning hill climbs and if he does, then an upgrade (or a drug test!) is definitely warranted.

The jump from 3 to 2 is huge and there are a lot of reasons to not want to do it. I know I just went through it. Ultimately I had more than enough points and couldn't resist the temptation to race with the big dogs and here in the front range of Colorado, big dogs is right on. I'm ready to get my ass kicked but **** at least I went all in and won't have regrets later in life. No 'what if's' for me.

At the end of the day this bike racing gig is all about challenging ourselves and if it's not then it's just an ego stroke. If you race just to have your ego fueled than you have bigger problems and people railing on you to upgrade should just forget and train harder to smash you.
Well said. Kudos to you for upgrading, esp. in CO!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wfrogge View Post
NEWS FLASH!!!


You are not supposed to place high in every race and if you are... well challenge yourself and upgrade! If it dosent work out ask for a downgrade.


Guys that place top 10 in CAT 3 (and CAT 4) just about every race and refuse to upgrade cause "the races are too long in 1 and 2" remind me of the 12 year old kid in the baby pool with arm floaties on thats too scared of the grown up pool. Grow a a pair and CAT up.


Sandbagging is for wussy!
I got nuthin'... what can I say, the man's a genius!!!!!!!
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Old 01-31-08, 12:46 PM   #24
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^ just sayin' in general, not directed at anyone.
It's cool, I didn't think so.

Most people who have a problem with/complain about sandbaggers are upset because they've been "screwed" out of races by someone who has no business racing at a lower level. This isn't the case with Double D, though. It just so happens we were talking about racing and sanbagging on a leisurely mountain bike ride the other day, and he wanted to see other peoples opinions on it.
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Old 01-31-08, 12:48 PM   #25
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Rider 1. Definitely

Rider 2. Yes, if you're really finishing top 10 EVERY race then I'm sure you'll have won a few too. Upgrade.

Rider 3. I certainly don't think this is a sandbagger. I honestly don't care about points. USAC is a big, sluggish, stupid bureaucracy and their "strictly points" system is a reflection of this.

Rider 4. OF COURSE... a race is race. If you podium in every race you enter then freakin' upgrade already and quit ruining it for the legitimate racers in your cat.

35+ and other "age" riders. I honestly have no problem with strong riders racing this cat. Apparently the only requirement is that you've been alive XX number of years.

The bottom line for me is that if you are winning races on a somewhat regular basis and you're always one of the stronger racers (not getting dropped) you should upgrade.

Don't be selfish. You don't have to win every time to have fun.
Thanks, just trying to set the stage for those who comment. If everyone defines sandbagging differently, then we have no way to know who we can agree with...
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