Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

View Poll Results: Where do you derive sprint wattage numbers?
Peak wattage 4 10.53%
Peak 5 seconds 14 36.84%
Peak 10 seconds 8 21.05%
Peak 20 seconds 8 21.05%
Other 4 10.53%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-31-08, 04:35 PM   #1
DrWJODonnell
Slow'n'Aero
Thread Starter
 
DrWJODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Driving the pace in the crosswind
Bikes:
Posts: 2,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Attn:Power Freaks. What is a sprint?

To explain, when you look at your peak sprint data, what do you quote? Your Wattage peak? Your highest Average 5 seconds? Highest 10 seconds? Highest 20? If a person has a 1400 watt sprint, what does that mean to you? I have my own opinions, but I want to know what you guys think.
DrWJODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 04:36 PM   #2
ElJamoquio
Burning Matches.
 
ElJamoquio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Bikes: Motobecane Le Champion SL, Cervelo P2SL
Posts: 9,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
5 Seconds is what I would quote, if I ever quoted my 5 second power. I don't because it's too embarrassing.
__________________
Reacting is mind candy; it requires no thought. Thinking is tedious.

Bikeforums 'Group Buy': Kinlin Rims, Sapim/DT Spokes, Formula/Bitex Hubs


"The only good race pace is suicide pace, and today looks like a good day to die."
-Steve Prefontaine
ElJamoquio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 04:37 PM   #3
transplant
this portrait of karma
 
transplant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: chicago
Bikes:
Posts: 1,238
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i was going to say 20 second
transplant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 04:43 PM   #4
dmotoguy
Edificating
 
dmotoguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland
Bikes: Spooky + Sachs
Posts: 2,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I dunno, they all have their merrits, i'd say that 15seconds is roughly what most people sprint for (200 meters at 50kph (just over 30mph) )

the max is good to see what kind of jump you have, but the 5 and 10 second are also valuable as is 20.
dmotoguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 05:05 PM   #5
NoRacer
Isaias
 
NoRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Essex, MD
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire (carbon, white)
Posts: 5,179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
Can this be deleted? I wanted to add a poll. Sorry!
You can delete your initial post yourself using 'Edit'. Deleting the initial post will delete the entire thread.
NoRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 05:14 PM   #6
botto 
.
 
botto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 40,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
To explain, when you look at your peak sprint data, what do you quote? Your Wattage peak? Your highest Average 5 seconds? Highest 10 seconds? Highest 20? If a person has a 1400 watt sprint, what does that mean to you? I have my own opinions, but I want to know what you guys think.
no PM. yeah i know. whatever.

what's a sprint? for me - as someone who can sprint, but isn't really a sprinter - it's the initial jump. watts or whatever, doesn't matter. just sayin'.

Last edited by botto; 01-31-08 at 06:11 PM.
botto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 05:29 PM   #7
damocles1
The mods changed this...
 
damocles1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 2,346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You have to have a big watt jump and then be able to hold some big watts for 10-15 seconds.

Example-

1550 watt jump
1480 5 sec
1405 10 sec
1370 15 sec

905 30 sec
damocles1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 05:56 PM   #8
San Rensho 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 5,548
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Don't understand your question. 1400 watts for 2 seconds may win a sprint, 1400 watts for 20 seconds may put you in the middle of the pack in a big field sprint.

What matters is speed (or time on the track), which of course is related to wattage. But speed is a much better measure of how well you sprint.
__________________
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace

1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
San Rensho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 05:56 PM   #9
LowCel 
Throw the stick!!!!
 
LowCel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Charleston, WV
Bikes: GMC Denali
Posts: 17,588
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoRacer View Post
You can delete your initial post yourself using 'Edit'. Deleting the initial post will delete the entire thread.
I'm pretty sure that won't work after a reply has been made to the thread. I went ahead and merged the two threads and deleted the original post though.
__________________
I may be fat but I'm slow enough to make up for it.
LowCel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 06:06 PM   #10
ElJamoquio
Burning Matches.
 
ElJamoquio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Bikes: Motobecane Le Champion SL, Cervelo P2SL
Posts: 9,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by San Rensho View Post
1400 watts for 20 seconds may put you in the middle of the pack in a big field sprint.
?!??!? Where are you racing?
__________________
Reacting is mind candy; it requires no thought. Thinking is tedious.

Bikeforums 'Group Buy': Kinlin Rims, Sapim/DT Spokes, Formula/Bitex Hubs


"The only good race pace is suicide pace, and today looks like a good day to die."
-Steve Prefontaine
ElJamoquio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 06:47 PM   #11
The_Cretin
Pedalphile
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boulder, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 258
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElJamoquio View Post
?!??!? Where are you racing?
On a planet populated entirely by Taylor Phinney clones.
The_Cretin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 06:50 PM   #12
Enzo Gucci
Euro-Trash
 
Enzo Gucci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 449
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I still can't understand the whole wattage thing.

People brag about being able to "touch" 1,400 watts.

Wow, isn't that impressive. Fresh, warm legs that can peak, for a split second, over 1,000 watts in the best of conditions. I didn't know sprints lasted less than one second.

What about realistic numbers that really matter? After being led out by your team at the end of a 200km stage, how long can you HOLD a certain number... that seems to make more sense to me. To me, the number game is obsolete in these situations.

1400watts for 20 seconds putting you mid pack? What kind of race are you taking about, the Worlds?
Enzo Gucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 06:55 PM   #13
esammuli
Glimmers of form
 
esammuli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Escondido, CA
Bikes: Cannondale SystemSix 3, Specialized Stumpjumper M4 Comp
Posts: 1,542
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Honestly I think it depends on the type of sprinter you are describing. Some guys are punchy, quick acceleration, McEwen-type guys and others are big, long lead out, Boonen-type guys. The quick guy might not have the 15-20 second power of the Boonen type, but he probably has a pretty good peak and 5 second W/kg.
esammuli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 07:07 PM   #14
DrWJODonnell
Slow'n'Aero
Thread Starter
 
DrWJODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Driving the pace in the crosswind
Bikes:
Posts: 2,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enzo Gucci View Post
People brag about being able to "touch" 1,400 watts.

Wow, isn't that impressive. Fresh, warm legs that can peak, for a split second, over 1,000 watts in the best of conditions. I didn't know sprints lasted less than one second.

What about realistic numbers that really matter? After being led out by your team at the end of a 200km stage, how long can you HOLD a certain number... that seems to make more sense to me.
I guess this is where I was going with the question. Some people talk about being able to touch on a certain number, but then can just barely hit it. In my mind a sprint is at least 10 seconds in duration, and so if someone were to ask me to quote my sprint wattage, I would say that normally I can hit X watts, but what I mean is that x watts = the average power output over the course of say 10-15 seconds. It is interesting to see the different answers though.
DrWJODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 07:09 PM   #15
Red Rider
Don't mince words
 
Red Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Vacaville, CA
Bikes: '16 BH Quartz, Co-Motion Roadster "Blue Jay"; Fuji D6 TT bike
Posts: 6,949
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't have a power meter. I know, I know, so dark-ages of me.

I measure intensity/output by my heart rate. A sprint for me is 90% of my max HR, as I discovered at the end of my first crit a couple weeks ago. I can sustain that for, I don't know, 25 seconds?

Speed isn't necessarily a factor in sprinting as grade and wind direction have more bearing than my own output.

I'm not sure that a power meter will affect my training enough to warrant the $$ (I'm on a self-imposed saving spree), especially since racing isn't a source of income for me (nor will it ever be).
Red Rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 07:14 PM   #16
wfrogge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 3,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
20 seconds if not more... Most think a sprint is just the final 5 second kick at the end but it aint
wfrogge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 07:17 PM   #17
Crit Rat
Member
 
Crit Rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You can't really measure a sprint with a heart rate monitor. Heart rate lags way too much.

When I talk sprint numbers I'll just say max wattage and then 5 second power (avg). I think 5 second power gets thrown out a lot because of the Coggan chart but also because true sprint power comes from the creatine phosphate energy system and it is pretty much depleted in around 8 seconds.

In real racing a full on sprint is more like 10 seconds and quite often longer. Of course this after going at least a threshold to more likely VO2 max or higher pace so peak wattage in a sprint at the end of a race is very rarely the max for any individual.

Again 1400 watts for 20 seconds is beyond world class. Probably is possible but likely for a trackie, not a road cyclist.
Crit Rat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 07:30 PM   #18
MDcatV
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 6,760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmotoguy View Post
I dunno, they all have their merrits, i'd say that 15seconds is roughly what most people sprint for (200 meters at 50kph (just over 30mph) )

the max is good to see what kind of jump you have, but the 5 and 10 second are also valuable as is 20.
+1, although a bit shorter for me, I've got a good jump/acceleration but am toast after about 150M. BUT, I'll say this, I dont put out nearly the Ws that I see posted all over this board, but am a pretty good sprinter at least at the Cat 3 level ... it's what you can do at the end of the race that matters, wattage #s with fresh legs are just d!ck measuring contests.
MDcatV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 07:51 PM   #19
DrWJODonnell
Slow'n'Aero
Thread Starter
 
DrWJODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Driving the pace in the crosswind
Bikes:
Posts: 2,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
+1, although a bit shorter for me, I've got a good jump/acceleration but am toast after about 150M. BUT, I'll say this, I dont put out nearly the Ws that I see posted all over this board, but am a pretty good sprinter at least at the Cat 3 level ... it's what you can do at the end of the race that matters, wattage #s with fresh legs are just d!ck measuring contests.
Why would anyone want to measure a duck?
DrWJODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 08:00 PM   #20
badfishgood
B(.)(.)BS
 
badfishgood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes: My bicycles?
Posts: 826
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
One second ahead of the second place finisher?
badfishgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 09:17 PM   #21
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I look at the zones. Neuromuscular power is most evident at the 5s duration. It would be pure max, but measurement of max is iffy with the PowerTap at least. 1m power is anaerobic capacity, and for me, this is more defining of my performance in a sprint.

When I think about what it takes for me to get around someone's wheel, my 5s power is a big player there -- even if I'm tired. To get to that point, I need anaerobic capacity for all the **** that went down to get to that point.

So, when I think of my sprint, it's 1527W 5s, and 721W 1m. Those numbers, together, are what I'm going to utilize in the final kilo.

If someone asks my sprint power, I'll say "1527W for 5s." Nobody's ever asked, of course

My max power of 1622W is nice to know, but I'm not sure it's accurate (I've hit over 1600W four times though), and I clearly can't maintain it.
waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 09:55 PM   #22
ElJamoquio
Burning Matches.
 
ElJamoquio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Bikes: Motobecane Le Champion SL, Cervelo P2SL
Posts: 9,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Rider View Post
I don't have a power meter. I know, I know, so dark-ages of me.

I measure intensity/output by my heart rate. A sprint for me is 90% of my max HR, as I discovered at the end of my first crit a couple weeks ago. I can sustain that for, I don't know, 25 seconds?

Speed isn't necessarily a factor in sprinting as grade and wind direction have more bearing than my own output.

I'm not sure that a power meter will affect my training enough to warrant the $$ (I'm on a self-imposed saving spree), especially since racing isn't a source of income for me (nor will it ever be).
Heart rate will never measure sprint well. I can hold 90% of Max Heart Rate for two hours; you probably can, too. Your HR didn't get up to steady state in your sprint, as it shouldn't.
__________________
Reacting is mind candy; it requires no thought. Thinking is tedious.

Bikeforums 'Group Buy': Kinlin Rims, Sapim/DT Spokes, Formula/Bitex Hubs


"The only good race pace is suicide pace, and today looks like a good day to die."
-Steve Prefontaine
ElJamoquio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 10:43 PM   #23
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 5,147
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
It would be interesting to see some sprint and podium finish power files from some of you. Why debate opinion if we can see a consistent curve shape in race files? Personally, I am uninterested training sprints or sprints for 12th place.
Enthalpic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 10:55 PM   #24
Enzo Gucci
Euro-Trash
 
Enzo Gucci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 449
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
It would be interesting to see some sprint and podium finish power files from some of you. Why debate opinion if we can see a consistent curve shape in race files? Personally, I am uninterested training sprints or sprints for 12th place.
I know that Dominguez has been riding an SRM. Next time we go riding I'll ask him about his sprint numbers at the end of a race. I'm sure his numbers would be a pretty good measuring stick for everyone else. There are so many variables, though.
Enzo Gucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-08, 11:35 PM   #25
curveship
wavylines
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bull City
Bikes:
Posts: 541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
I look at the zones. Neuromuscular power is most evident at the 5s duration. It would be pure max, but measurement of max is iffy with the PowerTap at least. 1m power is anaerobic capacity, and for me, this is more defining of my performance in a sprint.

When I think about what it takes for me to get around someone's wheel, my 5s power is a big player there -- even if I'm tired. To get to that point, I need anaerobic capacity for all the **** that went down to get to that point.
Best comment by a long shot!

In Enthalpic's "put up or shut up" vein, here's a screenshot of the last minute and change of a late season crit, where I won the pack sprint (2nd overall, late attack stayed away -- this is the PUR Tour Men's Cat 3, for any Ohio residents).

- 1 minute out there was a little kicker of a hill that reshuffled the pack. 700+ watts for about 20 seconds to stay on the wheel I wanted.
- 25 seconds out he attacks (I thought he would go early, which was why I wanted his wheel!) I hit a little under 1k watts to hold his wheel.
- last 5 seconds jump him and bike throw, 1k+ watts

In training, I can do 1450w 5seconds, but I've never hit over about 1250 in a race. In this particular race, a big deciding factor was that the first part was very negative and slow, so the last 20 minutes was pretty intense. I had an NP of 350w for the last 20 minutes.
curveship is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:36 PM.