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  1. #1
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
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    Guys - Tell me how to do this...

    to go so hard during your FTP test that you puke or almost puke. I’ve done 2 tests (20min), both giving me an NP of 182 (then FTP=172), but I never felt like I was going to puke and felt like I had a bit more left in the tank. I did get a bit lightheaded and started seeing black/bright spots, but no puking. I’ve subsequently reset my FTP to 185 because I’ve had rides of 3hr or so where my NP was above my FTP and I didn’t feel like they were really very difficult rides.

    Anyways, how do you push yourself so hard during this FTP test that you just about or do puke? What do you do to make yourself keep going when your legs/lungs are on fire, but you’ve still got more time left to complete your test? If you feel like you’re going to puke, does this mean you are at or very near your FTP? My next FTP test will probably be around the 3rd week in March.

    Edit - It's not about puking anymore...that doesn't mean much I don't think. Other than I ate a greasy meal and then rode
    Last edited by wolfpack; 02-21-08 at 06:31 AM.
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    Senior Member late's Avatar
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    Paging the Marquis De Pcad!
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpack View Post
    to go so hard during your FTP test that you puke or almost puke. Iíve done 2 tests (20min), both giving me an NP of 182 (then FTP=172), but I never felt like I was going to puke and felt like I had a bit more left in the tank. I did get a bit lightheaded and started seeing black/bright spots, but no puking. Iíve subsequently reset my FTP to 185 because Iíve had rides of 3hr or so where my NP was above my FTP and I didnít feel like they were really very difficult rides.
    Why are you using normalized (NP) rather than average power to calculate ftp? Also I suggest you look into Coggan's 7 deadly sins for calculating ftp as well as Normalized Power busters...

    wayne

  4. #4
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
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    ok, let's just disregard the numbers i have in the first post - this isn't really a question about what my numbers are or aren't.

    just tell me how you go about doing a 20min TT, giving it everything you've got till you puke?? what do you do to get through the mental part of "damn this really hurts" and keep on going till you just absolutely can't do any more and when you're done, you are puking/about to puke/need a ride home cause there's no way you can ride the 20mi back to your car
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  5. #5
    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    I do it on the trainer and turn my head to the left so that if I puke, it doesn't get on my drivetrain.

    Mentally, though, it's just an issue of focusing and blocking out the pain. Or embracing the pain, if that's your thing. But it's all about concentration.
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    why the obsession with puking?

    go hard at a pace you can sustain for the duration of the effort. self motivation, concentration, and focus are hard, if you cant test effectively independently, go to a coach who does VO2Max testing or similar and do a test there.

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    Slow'n'Aero DrWJODonnell's Avatar
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    I only puke when I am near MHR not with LT efforts. LT is more about pain. Embrace the pain. Love the pain. Know that pain will make you stronger, and if you have pain now, and are still alive, then you can take more.

  8. #8
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
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    well, i don't have a trainer and i ain't going to get one. hate those torture devices.

    i'm new to all this (PT since november) so i guess it's going to be a matter of learning to just block out the pain and digging a little deeper or to enjoy the pain.
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    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    its very tough for a lot of people to truly go as hard as they can when they are by themselves testing. Im not sure if Ive ever really been able to do it. I suggest just taking the number you are getting from the testing and just using that for a while. If you are seeing your IF consistently above or near 1 even on easier rides bump it up a bit.

    After youve gotten used to testing a few times you will be able to go harder too. At least its been for me in my experience.

  10. #10
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpack View Post
    well, i don't have a trainer and i ain't going to get one. hate those torture devices.
    are you training to race?

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    My idea of fun kensuf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpack View Post
    ok, let's just disregard the numbers i have in the first post - this isn't really a question about what my numbers are or aren't.

    just tell me how you go about doing a 20min TT, giving it everything you've got till you puke?? what do you do to get through the mental part of "damn this really hurts" and keep on going till you just absolutely can't do any more and when you're done, you are puking/about to puke/need a ride home cause there's no way you can ride the 20mi back to your car
    Smash your thumb with a hammer then go ride angry.
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  12. #12
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDcatV View Post
    why the obsession with puking?

    go hard at a pace you can sustain for the duration of the effort. self motivation, concentration, and focus are hard, if you cant test effectively independently, go to a coach who does VO2Max testing or similar and do a test there.
    meh. i don't really want to puke - that's really the last thing i ever want to do. but i want to be able to go at a hard enough pace that when i'm done, i know with certainty that i have left everything on the pavement.

    hmmm, maybe it's time for a new sig...embrace the pain, for it will make you stronger.
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  13. #13
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithuania View Post
    are you training to race?
    not really. but, i am training for a few organized rides this year (burnsville metric, assault on marion, TT's at charlotte, etc). i just want to be a better all around cyclist and to be able to climb the mountains of western NC.
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    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Yeah, it really is just about getting used to the pain. Make sure you don't start off above pace (maybe to get off the line, but not once you're rolling). The pain will catch up to you in about 2 minutes. For the 20 minute tests, I find it really important to get a good, solid goal in place. I need a number to go after.

    Figure out what sensations keep your legs turning with enough power. Sometimes I find my power dropping only to realize that I've backed off my quads a bit, and am mostly using my glutes. Re-focus and dial the quads back up a touch -- power goes back up, and I can get back to suffering.

    On hills, consider upshifting a cog or two and getting out of the saddle for 15 seconds or so. Try not to increase the power output, but let your cadence be a bit lower. This will work a different muscle group and bit, and get your weight off the tender parts for a bit.

    The trick is to come up with the right goal wattage. Last few tests have had me missing my goal by 3-5W, which tells me I've got the goal setting about right.

    Another thing to try is to hit your goal wattage for a steady minute during warmup -- probably do this twice. Get used to the pedal pressure and fine-tune your perceived exertion gauge.

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    Senior Member late's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpack View Post
    well, i don't have a trainer and i ain't going to get one. hate those torture devices.

    i'm new to all this (PT since november) so i guess it's going to be a matter of learning to just block out the pain and digging a little deeper or to enjoy the pain.
    So let me see if I have this correct... You want pain, but not things that inflict pain.
    I happen to be One with that view. I am a tourista. I want to keep breakfast down, stop somewnere nice, and enjoy a leisurely lunch, and then ride home. Makes for a lovely day.

    But if you want to race you want torture. That level of torture is just
    the beginning.

    Time to go to the Spinervals website.
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  16. #16
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
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    no. i had a trainer with probably 5 spinervals dvds. i absolutely hated getting on that trainer. absolutely farkin' hated it. so bad that i wouldn't get on it. i sold it and bought clothing so i could ride outside. riding outside FTW. i want to inflict my own pain - besides my butt hurt too bad after 30 min or an hour on that thing. my butt doesn't hurt when i ride outside.
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  17. #17
    Oh The Huge Manatee Lithuania's Avatar
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    you can try streadily increasing your effort over the 20 minute period.

  18. #18
    Burning Matches. ElJamoquio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpack View Post
    I did get a bit lightheaded and started seeing black/bright spots, but no puking.
    I've never gotten nauseous during FTP type efforts. When I start seeing spots, I know I'm in the correct level (for finishing the interval).
    Reacting is mind candy; it requires no thought. Thinking is tedious.

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    You kinda have to train yourself for pain--it is mostly mental. I can take a lot more pain this year than last year. I actually learned that I can climb with a sustained calf cramp. That was fun. Eventually you will be able to put yourself into that place. But it takes time.
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    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    I don't think puking is an accurate training tool. I've done very hard races & workouts, and don't ever remember puking sensations involved. Everyone is different, so YPMV (your puking may vary)
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  21. #21
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    To quote one of the best runners of all time:

    "In order to race, one must hate both his competition and himself."


    Quite simply, I don't think you have the personal self-loathing (copyright P-Cad 2007) necessary to do what you'd like to do. And if you do, you aren't picking at those almost healed psychological wounds enough to make them bleed again.

    Just imagine someone kicking your dog, drowning a burlap sack full of kittens (somewhat standard practice in every era pre-20th century), the high school bully stealing your lunch money, etc.
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  22. #22
    Rawwrrrrrrrrr! wolfpack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithuania View Post
    you can try streadily increasing your effort over the 20 minute period.
    yes, but i seem to have the problem right now of starting out too hard/fast and then tiring out quicker. just another thing i have to learn how to do.

    waterrockets
    - the goal you have, the number you are looking for, how do you determine that? Would this be the way: Letís just say I have a goal of an NP of 210 at the end of the 20min test. I would think that my AP would also be within a couple of watts of NP during a steady 20min. So would I try to keep the minimum power that I might see on the PT to 170 or so and the max be whatever it may be? That way, it would average out to be something close to the goal that I may have.

    Apus^2 - this is my first year of actually doing any structured training. prior to the PT, i basically rode to just get the miles in for the year and wondered why i wasn't making any progress. so, this is my first foray into training and the associated pain...i'm sure that by the end of the year i'm going to be a lot better.

    Duke of Kent - there ya go! That's what I need. Side note: yesterday on the way home after doing my intervals, I was in a hurry to get home and got stuck behind this pick-up. Old man driving and he had his dog with him. Every few minutes, the dog would reach over & give him a 'kiss' and you could see the old guy just smile - everyone was happy and my anger at getting held up was replaced by good feelings. I think if I could channel the anger I feel when I see someone being mean to an animal, into my 20min training or during my intervals, I may be able to do a bit better.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpack View Post
    just tell me how you go about doing a 20min TT, giving it everything you've got till you puke?? what do you do to get through the mental part of "damn this really hurts" and keep on going till you just absolutely can't do any more and when you're done, you are puking/about to puke/need a ride home cause there's no way you can ride the 20mi back to your car
    Time Trials are such a different animal than crits or road races. In a road race (or crit) you have all the riders around you for motivation, and to give you an idea in terms of dosing out your energy. In a TT, absent of other riders (except your minute men!), you really have to practice in order to dose out your energy. You'll get better the more you practice and the more TTs you do.

    In terms of motivation, the last TT I did was 6.5 miles of flat followed by a 1.5 mile VERY steep climb. I passed 2 of my minute men on the flats before I hit the climb. About 1/4 of the way up the climb, I hear some huffing and puffing. The last guy I passed was now right up beside me and about to pass! Well, that's where motivation kicked in. I was able to tap into my reserves and I dropped him. I didn't see him again until the TT was over. The point being, had he not come back to me, I would have gone slower up that climb for sure. Find some motivation!

    Good luck!

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  24. #24
    Aut Vincere Aut Mori Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Practice practice practice.

    You need to go all out in training frequently to get a good feel for LT intervals. Most beginning cyclists will go out too hard, then pop when they've blown their anaerobic work capacity - or not go hard enough at all because they aren't familiar with what their body is capable of.

    At this point it sounds like you should just ride for several weeks with the PT - not emphasizing social/bs'ing around rides, emphasize pain. Do at least two hard rides per week, then look back at several weeks of data. I imagine you'll have a feel for your FTP after analyzing ride files from hard intervals. Once you're a happy resident of the pain cave you'll have a better handle on what kind of efforts you're actually capable of.

    EDIT: For goodness sake - don't use NP from a 20 minute effort to determine your FTP. The only time NP would be viable is if it were a 100% "please kill me now" effort 60 minute race, and even then it'd still probably predict high due to the accelerations.

  25. #25
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpack View Post
    i am training for a few organized rides this year (...TT's at charlotte, etc).

    Doing an actual TT will give you valuable data. Nothing like competition to get the best out of you.

    So do your best with the test, correlate that data with your TT data.

    And don't worry too much about it. It doesn't have to be all that precise.

    Also if you track your data over a number of hard rides, including group rides, you can see on the graphs where your power drops off significany. That's a pretty good estimate of your true FTP.

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