mikearena

A question about 20 minute intervals (no powermeter):

I believe my LTHR is around 178-182bpm (an estimate from a 30 minute time trial, average HR of the last 20 minutes). When I'm doing 20 minute intervals, I shoot to hold my heart rate right at 180 (a little higher uphill, into the wind, a little lower downhill, with the wind).

The first interval always goes great. Breathing is slightly labored, the legs burn just a little. All is great with the world.

Then ten minutes of rest (I'm lazy). Heart rate down to about 140 or so, just spinning along. Still feeling pretty good about life.

Second interval starts. I hate the world. I can't get my heart rate up anymore. Riding at about 170bpm feels like 185 used to, and riding anywhere near 180 feels like I'm blowing up. I usually end up being able to hold about 165 with the same perceived effort as holding 180 in my first interval.

So what's the deal? Am I going too hard on the first interval? Resting too much? Over/under estimating my LTHR? Any help is appreciated. I don't feel like it's a mental block, but I suppose it certainly could be, if there's no other physiological explanation. I'm just looking to make sure I'm getting as much out of this workout as I can.

Thanks.

For reference, I'm 22 years old, 6'2", 165 pounds, 213 MHR.

MDcatV

how many of these types of workouts have you done? is it a trend in all or most of them? how long is it taking you to get to LTHR in the 1st effort. IME, it should take several minutes of steady effort building, otherwise, you might be doing an interval that is more of a VO2Max effort, followed by a recovery (even though your HR is still high), then a steady state near LTHR.

could be many things, including some of those you mentioned re: going too hard in the 1st effort or overestimating of your LTHR, cant see how underestimating LTHR would have this kind of result.

when I was doing 2x20s without a power meter, my primary governor was perceived exertion, with HR as a secondary metric or guideline. I would try to build to LTHR at around the 4 to 5 minute point, no real reason, that's just how it would "feel" best for me. my 2nd effort would typically "feel" better than 1st and HR response would be similar.

mikearena

Good point, I forgot that. I've been doing these for a while now, definitely a trend. I tend to run them kind of like time trials - I start with my heart rate around 160, jump decently hard out of the saddle, settle back down after about 15 seconds or so with my heart rate around 180, and then go from there. So all in all, I'd day I'm above my LTHR for about a minute tops at the start, but never really too much higher than 190.

I'll have to give slowly building up a try, see if that affects my second interval at all.

Also, for what it's worth, I don't really notice too much fading on my 6x1's, 5x3's, 4x5's, etc. until around the last one, when I'm basically spent.

curiouskid55

Cruise intervals- Zone 5 (for me 162)- 4@15 w/2min rest I think you are spending way to much time between intervals. And I'm not sure about your lthr seems awfully high.
I just starting doing intervals @ supermaximal(above max hr) Zone 5a (for me 173) 4@3 w/1min rest. Didn't finish first few time because I didn't want to puke on my garage floor.

wfrogge

I was thinking his LTHR seems low given his high max HR

mikearena

I've only seen that max once. I've seen 207 about three times, so 213 might be a bit of a glitch (happened during my second race, don't know when, but there was a crash right in front of me on the last lap, setting up for the sprint, so that could have been it - more adrenaline induced than actual effort perhaps).

NomadVW 

I never "jump" into 2x20's. This is one of the challenges with training this particular system with HR. In fact, the more fit I get, the longer it takes HR to respond to the effort - making it that much less relevant. I think it's more effective to negative split the interval and complete it, than go out too hard and die in 13-15 minutes.

If you look at the HR plot from this 2nd 2x20 @ 93%, you'd assume I started out too easy. Granted, I ramped the effort a bit at the end, but 2x20's aren't about spending time at LTHR. They're about spending time putting out an exertion level.
(dotted line is avg hr)


(dotted line is FTP)

merlinextraligh

This comment makes me think you're going a tad hard on the first one. Steady State intervals aren't time trials, and the perceived exertion (at least according to my Coach, and the CTS program) is a notch below a time trial effort. It should be an 8/10ths effort.

They should be hard, but if you're dying on the second one, you may be going a tad too hard. Try backing off a couple of beats a minute on the first one, and see how you feel on the second.

Or better yet, buy a power meter.

KendallF

Yup..I don't often ride w/the HR strap and the power meter, but when I do, the HR lags the first set. If you're getting the HR up right away on the first set, you are almost certainly going too hard.

recneps

Your HR and LTHR and age are almost the exact same as mine.

What your experiencing is nothing more than not being rested enough to do 2x20s.

To get in a really good 2x20 or an hour at threshold, I need to basically rest for two days and warm up for like an hour before I start the interval.

mikearena

Alright, thanks for all the tips. I'll give it another shot on Monday and let you know how it goes.

timmhaan

i think this is the right way to go about it. i would actually cover up the HR meter so i couldn't see it and just do the 20 minutes as fast as possible without blowing up. the resulting heart rate average will tell you what you can realistically handle.

it takes a little while to dial this stuff in... more data is always better. keep a record of your tests and compare them to see if there is any progress. in the short term, knowing what you can handle for the 2nd interval will help you tone down a bit for the first one and smooth things out.

aicabsolut

Another thought...are you warming up thoroughly before the first interval? I find my HR is much much higher for a given level of perceived exertion during the warmup period than after. I know I'm nice and warmed up when I'm doing the same or harder work (judging by gearing or speed on a trainer for example) at a much lower HR. Sometimes, this is a 10bpm difference. If you haven't warmed up well before the first interval, then for the second interval (when you are ready to go), it may seem ridiculously hard to achieve the same heart rate levels. To see if that's the case or if you really are blowing up, look at your speed over the 2 intervals on the same terrain.

carpediemracing 

My god I'm glad the chart man doesn't race against me. Does he?

I suffer ferociously to do any effort longer than a minute or so. Mentally I have such a hard time doing it. And to use a term I saw used previously, it's definitely a trend for the last 10 years or so.

cdr

recneps

hahaha, no, thats exactly the point of 2x20s.

hahahaha, go do a 4 hour tempo ride then do 2x20s the next day and hey if your HR is 20 beats lower than threshold but you feel like your suffering you must be doing something right.


I also just want to say that anyone doing 2x20s right now is setting up for a peak for the first weeks in April. You can do 2x20s 4 days a week but when you power doesnt increase any in april let me know.

mollusk

Where do you ride your 2x20's? I'm guessing CR 225 going past the drag strip based on your other posts. That would be an excellent choice. I usually ride mine on Hawthorne Road starting just past Lake Shore Drive and coming back for the second set. I'm sure that CR 225 offers the same kind of experience.

I find that it is easiest to do these on calm days simply because I don't have a Powertap or even a heart rate monitor. Most days the winds are calm at sunrise so that is a good time to do these for me. Since the routes are essentially flat you can run a steady power output by simply keeping a steady speed. Lucky for me I have cheap Sigma cyclometers on my bikes so that I can monitor my speed. Last year I was doing my 2x20's by keeping a steady 24 mph pace for 20 minutes in calm conditions on Hawthorne Road, then riding very slowly into Hawthorne and "noodling" around for a bit (about 20 minutes total to recover), and repeating the 24 mph for 20 minute effort back toward Gainesville. I then crawled home for the remainder of the ride. Modify the mph for the effort to suit your needs. It will only take a couple of times to figure out what is right for you. I'm sure that there are lots and lots of guys in town that would do them much faster than I do.

I do have to say that the second set was always WAY harder than the first set. The first set was always an almost pleasant experience, while the second set was a much darker experience. I think that more was gained from the second set, though.

NomadVW 

Well, certainly if you're putting yourself into training overload, HR can be a relevant data point to pay attention to. And this is where the "uncomplicated" part of training can get very complicated and becomes both a science and an art form.

I would disagree that 2x20's set you up for a peak, but that ultimately depends on the other 6 days of your week.

My point about spending time at LTHR during 2x20's is this: 2x20's arent about getting to LTHR as quick as you can and staying there the rest of the interval. In fact, that's - as one person said - a sure way to blow up in the second interval if you're doing upper level intensity 2x20's. I could do the "jump into the interval" if I was doing 3x20's at 91-93%, but if I'm doing 2x20's at 100% FTP, jumping into the interval would be downright counterproductive.

ElJamoquio

Hmm... I thought everyone did twenties at ~100% of FTP.

mikearena

Not quite... Heading down south is a bit easier for me, so I usually head out on Williston. If I'm looking to do only about 35 miles, I'll start my first one when I turn on to Wacahoota. From there, I head up Angle Road and finish up on the trail. More commonly, I'll start my first one when I pass Wacahoota, but continue heading south to 320, turn off of that onto 329/234, and take the trail home for a bit longer ride.

I work or have class every morning at sunrise, so I won't be able to get anything early in before this semester ends. Hawthorne Road always seems so windy to me whenver I'm out there (afternoon/evening) but I'll have to try it during the non-peak times. There's definitely a few small hills on my route, so that could be tripping me up slightly. Good insight with the flat terrain, constant power - I hadn't thought of that.


And yes, I'll probably peak sometime in April, but really that's fine with me. The race season here has been going for about a month, and takes a lull right around May, which gives me plenty of time for a second build, and a second peak in June/July when we've got the state championships, and I'll be traveling to a few larger races.

Seriously. I think I'm in way over my heard here. I need to be spoon fed.

mollusk

I think that Wacahoota Road and Angle Road are just a little bit too short to get a full 20 minutes in. Then again, what is to say that 2x15 isn't bad! I really hate to break the effort to have to negotiate a turn with traffic before the time is up. And the Trail is no place to be doing this. There can be all kinds of other riders that you have to slow down for. I only use the Trail for easy days and warm-up. When riding Angle Road from Micanopy continuing on CR 2082 toward Windsor should get you to 20 minutes before getting to Hawthorne Road. CR 320 is good if you can keep the effort steady with the ups and downs.

As for % of FTP, I always run my 2x20's at something over 100% of whatever my FTP is. I don't have a Powertap so I don't have any numbers to post, but I'm running a full 1 mph faster on my 2x20's than I normally can hold for an hour on similar terrain and weather conditions.

At this point in your development I wouldn't sweat the details. It is ALL good.

Don't forget to work on your sprint, too.

mikearena

You've seen that, eh? I'm blaming the Dade City crit (and the RR too for that matter) on a faulty shifter that dropped about two cogs whenever I got out of the saddle (sending me from the 15t to the 11t, effectively removing all 'punch'). Got freshly rebuilt last night (and converted to 10 speed!) so I should be running fine. Hopefully.

I usually run out of terrain on Wacahoota, but I just finish it up on the first little uphill of Angle for the most part. The second one usually ends on that first stretch of trail that's nice, straight, and flat, so I don't generally have too many issues, but I agree - as soon as it starts curving, and going up, I'm basically in cool down mode.

recneps

Think about what system your training, and how your training it. I'm not making this stuff up on the fly this is stuff my very experianced coach and exercise physiologist have told me.

If your rested enough to do 2x20s you should be able to complete both intervals at or above LTHR.

Thats all I'm going to say on the subject.

MDcatV

I would bet an energy bar you guys are debating using different terminology that your reference materials or coaches use.

NomadVW 

Well.. honestly - I couldn't tell. I don't use LTHR for 2x20's, I use FTP (or % of depending on fatigue level) - which IS significantly different. Whether LTHR should be used for 2x20's depends on which one of the handful of methods you use to "call" LTHR.

mollusk

Not really. The point is that you need to train a lot of different things. You never know when you may need that particular thing.

And don't say "I'm not a sprinter". If you find yourself in a break with a couple of slow twitch monsters all you need to be is better than those guys at the end. The uber-sprinters in the race will be sprinting for small change after you are finished.