Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-21-08, 01:23 PM   #1
merckx89
getting dropped
Thread Starter
 
merckx89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: pasadena ca
Bikes: cannondale super six, KHS 100 fixed, P3
Posts: 917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reevaluating FTP

So I've got a time trial coming up and I recently found out that my powertap was not zeroed for the last week so the numbers are useless from it. Before that I did not have a real race to get an accurate FTP from, as most were shorter than an hour. I'm a little worried about pacing during it and subsequently am trying to find my FTP again. Question 1: Is there a way to remove select workouts from cycling peaks?
Question 2: I know that FTP can be based off of the power distribution chart. What would you assume an FTP from this chart would be.
merckx89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 01:47 PM   #2
wfrogge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 3,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I would rely on PE rather than FTP for a time trial but thats me.
wfrogge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 02:11 PM   #3
kukusz
A Member
 
kukusz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 855
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merckx89 View Post
First of all...

http://www.midweekclub.ca/powerFAQ.htm#Q46

Second of all...

You should use 5 Watt bins, I think it would be easier to see. I would guess your ftp is in the 280-300 range. The other thing you might want to do is look at your MMP curve but switch it to normalized power and find an hour. Look at that workout, if that workout has a VI of less than 1.25 you should be able to guesstimate your FTP to +-5% of that value.
kukusz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 02:14 PM   #4
Snuffleupagus
Aut Vincere Aut Mori
 
Snuffleupagus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Bikes: Irish Cycles Tir na Nog, Jack Kane Team Racing, Fuji Aloha 1.0, GT Karakoram, Motobecane Fly Team
Posts: 4,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Go out and drill it for half an hour: http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesbl...and-power.html

Or:
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/.../threshold.asp
Snuffleupagus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 04:05 PM   #5
IKYR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
How do you know your pt numbers are off? It may be correctable...

wayne
IKYR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 04:07 PM   #6
NoRacer
Isaias
 
NoRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Essex, MD
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire (carbon, white)
Posts: 5,179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
280-300 using that one graph
NoRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 05:56 PM   #7
DrWJODonnell
Slow'n'Aero
 
DrWJODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Driving the pace in the crosswind
Bikes:
Posts: 2,599
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Around 280 using that graph.
DrWJODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 07:43 PM   #8
king-tony
Ninja don't wear flipflop
 
king-tony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NE TN
Bikes: Specialized S-Works Roubaix SL3, BMC TM01...if it every ships
Posts: 1,443
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If I understand training peaks correctly, it reads the saved workouts files everytime it loads. If you delete the files that you believe are bad, then I would think it would be ok.
king-tony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 08:27 PM   #9
merckx89
getting dropped
Thread Starter
 
merckx89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: pasadena ca
Bikes: cannondale super six, KHS 100 fixed, P3
Posts: 917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Problem is I sold the powertap before I realized it was off. The only way I figured out was the new one i got was reading a little lower. So I assumed that the old was was off, just don't know how much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by king-tony View Post
If I understand training peaks correctly, it reads the saved workouts files everytime it loads. If you delete the files that you believe are bad, then I would think it would be ok.
So if I delete the files, the MMP graph will be redone? The only reason I can't use the MMP curve is the whole thing is from the last few rides with the old powertap, so I think the whole thing is off. I can't go out there and do the test as the race is next weekend and I'm trying to take it easy next week, so I figured I would be able to base it off of current stats.
merckx89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 08:30 PM   #10
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 29,133
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
do a CTS field test. It's pretty quick. Warm up. 3mile tt effort, 10 minutes rest 3 mile tt effort, average the power for the 2 and take 92% of that.

In my experience its pretty accurate, and a lot easier than doing a one hour effort.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 08:30 PM   #11
ElJamoquio
Burning Matches.
 
ElJamoquio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Bikes: Motobecane Le Champion SL, Cervelo P2SL
Posts: 9,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
So... what power mechanism are you planning on measuring the power with during the TT's?
__________________
Reacting is mind candy; it requires no thought. Thinking is tedious.

Bikeforums 'Group Buy': Kinlin Rims, Sapim/DT Spokes, Formula/Bitex Hubs


"The only good race pace is suicide pace, and today looks like a good day to die."
-Steve Prefontaine
ElJamoquio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 08:38 PM   #12
merckx89
getting dropped
Thread Starter
 
merckx89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: pasadena ca
Bikes: cannondale super six, KHS 100 fixed, P3
Posts: 917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElJamoquio View Post
So... what power mechanism are you planning on measuring the power with during the TT's?
I bought a new one after I sold the old one. (great deal on a reynolds rim)
merckx89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 08:51 PM   #13
ElJamoquio
Burning Matches.
 
ElJamoquio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Bikes: Motobecane Le Champion SL, Cervelo P2SL
Posts: 9,666
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
OK, take the base data of the old one, on a 280-watt-ish day. Take the minimum torque - it should be zero. If it isn't, you can manually re-zero the data and scale the power appropriately in Excel.

It should be close, assuming your 'bad' data didn't drift too far. I'd personally try at least three, but it's your time/effort.
__________________
Reacting is mind candy; it requires no thought. Thinking is tedious.

Bikeforums 'Group Buy': Kinlin Rims, Sapim/DT Spokes, Formula/Bitex Hubs


"The only good race pace is suicide pace, and today looks like a good day to die."
-Steve Prefontaine
ElJamoquio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 10:04 PM   #14
merckx89
getting dropped
Thread Starter
 
merckx89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: pasadena ca
Bikes: cannondale super six, KHS 100 fixed, P3
Posts: 917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElJamoquio View Post
OK, take the base data of the old one, on a 280-watt-ish day. Take the minimum torque - it should be zero. If it isn't, you can manually re-zero the data and scale the power appropriately in Excel.

It should be close, assuming your 'bad' data didn't drift too far. I'd personally try at least three, but it's your time/effort.
So looking at the file from the old hub, the lowest hub torque was 13. Many of the times when I was slowing down it was reading in the mid 30's. How do you manually re-zero the data? What do you mean "try at least 3"
merckx89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-08, 10:43 PM   #15
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 5,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merckx89 View Post
So looking at the file from the old hub, the lowest hub torque was 13. Many of the times when I was slowing down it was reading in the mid 30's. How do you manually re-zero the data? What do you mean "try at least 3"
see link in post #3
Enthalpic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-08, 05:34 AM   #16
king-tony
Ninja don't wear flipflop
 
king-tony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NE TN
Bikes: Specialized S-Works Roubaix SL3, BMC TM01...if it every ships
Posts: 1,443
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merckx89 View Post
Problem is I sold the powertap before I realized it was off. The only way I figured out was the new one i got was reading a little lower. So I assumed that the old was was off, just don't know how much.


So if I delete the files, the MMP graph will be redone? The only reason I can't use the MMP curve is the whole thing is from the last few rides with the old powertap, so I think the whole thing is off. I can't go out there and do the test as the race is next weekend and I'm trying to take it easy next week, so I figured I would be able to base it off of current stats.

Yes. I tried this last night. To be safe just move the files in quesiton to another directory. Using windows they should be in Program Files>Intellicoach>data>rider name. If you are like me and used the default naming scheme, they should be listed by date and be pretty easy to find.
king-tony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-08, 07:43 AM   #17
The_Cretin
Pedalphile
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boulder, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 258
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Since it's BF, I'm going to say 350W.
The_Cretin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-08, 07:44 AM   #18
TurboTurtle
NeoRetroGrouch
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Do you now know how to zero the torque each ride?

Learn to use the Chalkbord in WKO+ and you can pick any files you want.

Have you checked the calibration on either hub?

I wouldn't assume anything from that graph.

TF
TurboTurtle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-08, 08:54 AM   #19
NomadVW 
部門ニ/自転車オタク
 
NomadVW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Yuma, AZ
Bikes: 2005 Specialized Roubaix Elite, 2005 Specialized FSR XC Comp, 2008 Blue T16, 2009 Blue RC8, Fetish Cycles Road Bike
Posts: 3,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm assuming that power distribution graph is over a period of time - which makes it mostly useless for gauging FTP. You'd want a good single ride when using the power distribution, or all rides that would be similarly difficult at/near FTP. If you used the power distro chart for the last 28 days on my Cpeaks, it would indicate an FTP some 40 watts lower than what it is - because of a larger percentage time riding endurance miles than I would ride @ threshold. But if you look at my power distro charts for _only_ @/near threshold days, you'd get a much more accurate picture of FTP.

It's just not that easy to get it from power distro charts, imo. That's why it's not high on the list of ways to determine it.
__________________
Envision, Energize, Enable
NomadVW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-08, 09:57 AM   #20
brianappleby
Senior Member?
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Bikes: orbea onix, Cervelo SLC, Specialzed Allez, Cervelo P3 Alu
Posts: 1,975
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
sidenote: Learn how to zero your torque at the head unit. If you haven't done this, it's your problem, not the PT's.
brianappleby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-08, 03:33 PM   #21
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Interesting discussion here. I'm not trying to completely hijack, but...

I've been estimating my FTP at 345 for the last 2 weeks, but I feel like I'm stronger than that, especially with my new 5-minute record of 454W. The two chances I've had to test FTP were ruined by flash floods and flat tires. Yesterday I went out to hammer with Houston_Biker (my bro-in-law) for 42 miles, and we just kept the pressure up the whole way in a 2-man paceline. Really tough ride, but but not like a race. About 2 hours.

So, this is the distribution from the ride (excluding NMP portions), the green bar is 350-360W. I plan to confirm with a test sometime in the next month, but would that put my FTP at 350+? (With 5w bins, the big drop comes after 360-365, but the lines are too thin to post usefully)

waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-08, 03:42 PM   #22
NomadVW 
部門ニ/自転車オタク
 
NomadVW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Yuma, AZ
Bikes: 2005 Specialized Roubaix Elite, 2005 Specialized FSR XC Comp, 2008 Blue T16, 2009 Blue RC8, Fetish Cycles Road Bike
Posts: 3,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you have PE that tells you something based on what you feel AND see on the meter, that will be wholly more accurate than a power distro examination, IMO.
__________________
Envision, Energize, Enable
NomadVW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-08, 03:49 PM   #23
kukusz
A Member
 
kukusz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 855
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
^^^

I would definitely up your ftp to the 350+ range and then maybe even more after some more formal testing.

On a side note, during a race today I set a 30 MP of 261 and a normalized for that time of 281. I had my FTP set to 255, time to go up as well? I've set several 60 M normalized of over 260 in recent training rides, if that helps.

edit: Reading Friel's blog tells me not to up it since it was a 30 MP set during a race.

Last edited by kukusz; 03-22-08 at 04:17 PM.
kukusz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-08, 03:59 PM   #24
Snuffleupagus
Aut Vincere Aut Mori
 
Snuffleupagus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Bikes: Irish Cycles Tir na Nog, Jack Kane Team Racing, Fuji Aloha 1.0, GT Karakoram, Motobecane Fly Team
Posts: 4,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So, uh, why the aversion to just doing a test? 30 minutes flat out should be part of a regular training regimen this time of year anyway...
Snuffleupagus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-08, 04:04 PM   #25
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection
Posts: 26,130
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
So, uh, why the aversion to just doing a test? 30 minutes flat out should be part of a regular training regimen this time of year anyway...
Yeah, I tried testing twice last week, but was foiled both times. This week I've got some other bleed-from-the-eyes training nonsense planned (Jester pb attempt..., Tuesday Nighter, then I'll be too beat for a good test), then a mini-taper for a race on Sunday.
waterrockets is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:37 AM.