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  1. #1
    Slow'n'Aero DrWJODonnell's Avatar
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    Tour de Ephrata report

    As usual, the report can be found here.

    However, it is a stage race. 3 stages. So a short version is mandatory.

    Short version
    Stage 1 - I sat up out of the winning break. Why? Don't ask.
    Stage 2 - A bit of redemption with a time trial win. It was a climbing TT though.
    Stage 3 - The crit left me with a few choices. Decided to stick with game plan. However, the teammate I was helping was caught behind a crash.

    Overall, I still took tenth with two other teammates in the top ten, but I should have just said screw team tactics and won the stupid thing. But that would have been selfish and not been nice.

    Still, at least I could have been not so stupid.

  2. #2
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
    Stage 1 - I sat up out of the winning break. Why? Don't ask.
    Ok, I'll just write down a meaningless letter.

    Y.

    Y?

    Y.

    I know. It can be that bad. Ask me about handing a minute to a giant motor in a petulant argument with another rider last year.

  3. #3
    Senior Member zimbo's Avatar
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    You wrote: "(a person with someone on his wheel actually saves energy, so even sitting on, you still help the guy in front a bit)"

    What are we talking about? 1 or 2 watts?

    --Steve

  4. #4
    Senior Member The_Convert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo View Post
    You wrote: "(a person with someone on his wheel actually saves energy, so even sitting on, you still help the guy in front a bit)"

    What are we talking about? 1 or 2 watts?

    --Steve
    LOL!

  5. #5
    Gios my baby hiromian's Avatar
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    This one time, at race camp, I raced and chose not to win it. I wish.
    "Aiyah...Oh no"

  6. #6
    Senior Member Edonis13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
    I should have just said screw team tactics and won the stupid thing.
    true story.

  7. #7
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    The team's strongest TTer was in the potentially winning break. What were the tactics?

  8. #8
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
    As usual, the report can be found here.

    However, it is a stage race. 3 stages. So a short version is mandatory.

    Short version
    Stage 1 - I sat up out of the winning break. Why? Don't ask.
    Stage 2 - A bit of redemption with a time trial win. It was a climbing TT though.
    Stage 3 - The crit left me with a few choices. Decided to stick with game plan. However, the teammate I was helping was caught behind a crash.

    Overall, I still took tenth with two other teammates in the top ten, but
    I should have just said screw team tactics and won the stupid thing. But that would have been selfish and not been nice.

    Still, at least I could have been not so stupid.
    If your designated guy is fried, it is up to him to release the team to go for plan B (or C).

    I read you race report and it seems like you guys made a series of calls that lead to results being less than what they could have been.

    Sometimes it just goes that way.
    BLOG of BOB: Old Guy Racer
    BDop Cycling Company Ltd.: bdopcycling.com, facebook

  9. #9
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    It's easy to look back on a race with 20/20 hindsight and identify what you did wrong. Stuff happens, every race is a learning opportunity for you and your team.

    I've raced against the Evo guy since we were both 5s, dont really know him other than to nod hello, but he's very strong when on ... I'll be very attentive to him this weekend.

  10. #10
    Senior Member The_Convert's Avatar
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    IMO this is typical of cat 3s completely overthinking tactics. Dont chase your teammates, always have a guy in the break, but stop trying to act like Johan.

  11. #11
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    these guys are hardly typical 3s though.

  12. #12
    Senior Member The_Convert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    these guys are hardly typical 3s though.
    all the more reason they should have easily won.

  13. #13
    Slow'n'Aero DrWJODonnell's Avatar
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    From the outset it was not supposed to be my weekend. I was happy to work for other people but we did want to try some tactics. The "Get O'Donnell in the break" thing has played itself out a bit and so we wanted to try getting several people in a break so that we could practice working a break over (and as I said, it was supposed to be for other teammates I was working). When it came down to it however, unbeknownst to me, the team had decided that since I was in the break, the win was in the bag. I, however was not there for the win for me, I wanted to actually follow through with the original plan. Frankly, I wanted to Hand Nomad his first Stateside win if I could. Thus the whole problem.

    I agree with Convert that we were perhaps overthinking things. If we wanted to win outright, then we had set everything up well. It's just that it was considered a training race to try out some new things for upcoming important races. And, the fact is, I screwed up. Sometimes rather than holding on to stringent ideals (we WILL do it exactly the way we said) it is necessary to have flexibility. I did not do that, and it cost us.

    Still, Nomad raced very well. Can't wait to race with him some more.

  14. #14
    Slow'n'Aero DrWJODonnell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo View Post
    You wrote: "(a person with someone on his wheel actually saves energy, so even sitting on, you still help the guy in front a bit)"

    What are we talking about? 1 or 2 watts?

    --Steve
    This is from page 198 of "Bicycling Science" I don't know how accurate this is, but I have read similar statements (without references) in other books:
    A better representtion of two riders one behind the other is of two circular cylinders (figure 5.19). "When the gap is about two diameters, the lead [cylinder or person] actually experiences a reduction in drag of about 15%. The rear person at that spacing has about zero drag. When the separation increased to four diameters, the lead person loses and benefit, while the rear person's drag is about 25% of the solo value" (Papadopoulos and Drela 1999, 20).
    I have read elsewhere that a person sitting on your wheel disrupts the eddies and vortex that would produce drag behind the lead rider and as such, the lead rider goes faster for the same power output. By the quote above, I would guess the maximum savings would be in the area of 15%. If that optimum is obtained, 15% of 350 watts is some 50 watts savings for the lead rider. I don't expect that the positioning was ideal, but I would not be surprised if more than 1 or 2 watts were saved.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo View Post
    You wrote: "(a person with someone on his wheel actually saves energy, so even sitting on, you still help the guy in front a bit)"

    What are we talking about? 1 or 2 watts?

    --Steve
    More like 10% or more.

    Think about it. Ever been the last guy in line? Feel that mysterious force sucking you backwards? If a guy is pulling you along, he no longer has to deal with that. You do.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  16. #16
    Senior Member zimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
    More like 10% or more. Think about it. Ever been the last guy in line? Feel that mysterious force sucking you backwards? If a guy is pulling you along, he no longer has to deal with that. You do.
    If it's anywhere near 10% I'll send you a six-pack of your favorite malt beverage.

    --Steve

  17. #17
    Senior Member Duke of Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo View Post
    If it's anywhere near 10% I'll send you a six-pack of your favorite malt beverage.

    --Steve
    This effect is also why I'll gladly tow any person I can beat in a sprint up to a break. We each benefit.
    "If a non personal post makes you feel as if you've been attacked, maybe the problem IS you."

  18. #18
    部門ニ/自転車オタク NomadVW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post
    From the outset it was not supposed to be my weekend. I was happy to work for other people but we did want to try some tactics. The "Get O'Donnell in the break" thing has played itself out a bit and so we wanted to try getting several people in a break so that we could practice working a break over (and as I said, it was supposed to be for other teammates I was working). When it came down to it however, unbeknownst to me, the team had decided that since I was in the break, the win was in the bag. I, however was not there for the win for me, I wanted to actually follow through with the original plan. Frankly, I wanted to Hand Nomad his first Stateside win if I could. Thus the whole problem.

    I agree with Convert that we were perhaps overthinking things. If we wanted to win outright, then we had set everything up well. It's just that it was considered a training race to try out some new things for upcoming important races. And, the fact is, I screwed up. Sometimes rather than holding on to stringent ideals (we WILL do it exactly the way we said) it is necessary to have flexibility. I did not do that, and it cost us.Still, Nomad raced very well. Can't wait to race with him some more.
    Next time let's not put me in the first break up the road All in all, I'm pretty pleased with the performance for me over the weekend after what felt like a pretty crap week. Wish I'd turned the powertap on before the road race just to see how hard we were going in the first break, cause it was a pretty blistering pace.

    Interestingly, I would have had the 2nd fastest TT time if I raced in the Cat 4 only field, but it was a lot more enjoyable racing with the team.
    Envision, Energize, Enable

  19. #19
    Slow'n'Aero DrWJODonnell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NomadVW View Post
    Next time let's not put me in the first break up the road All in all, I'm pretty pleased with the performance for me over the weekend after what felt like a pretty crap week. Wish I'd turned the powertap on before the road race just to see how hard we were going in the first break, cause it was a pretty blistering pace.

    Interestingly, I would have had the 2nd fastest TT time if I raced in the Cat 4 only field, but it was a lot more enjoyable racing with the team.
    I hear you. I for one was glad to have you there. I think the idea to get you up the road early was a good one, but unfortunately those guys blew your break apart. I would happily have ridden up to you and turned the heat up, but races are as they are.

    PS Great job on the TT Nomad. you beat some VERY good TTists in only your first full TT!! You are going to be scary (if you aren't already!)!!

  20. #20
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell View Post

    PS Great job on the TT Nomad. you beat some VERY good TTists in only your first full TT!! You are going to be scary (if you aren't already!)!!
    I hope you have been working with Nomad to help make his TT position as insanely aero as yours.

    I'll admit, I take all your TT tips as gospel.

  21. #21
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimbo View Post
    If it's anywhere near 10% I'll send you a six-pack of your favorite malt beverage.

    The effect is great enough that Coggan mentioned that he has been able to detect it in power files over in the wattage forum. So, that's at least bigger than the error in power meters.

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